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Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

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Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#21

Post by Leary »

c3534l wrote: post #2

It's really unfortunate that abiding by local laws and regulations is considered unethical. But even if we assume that there is no legal way for a company to operate ethically in China, is the world meant to close our borders to them entirely? 20% of the planet lives there and we do business with China every day when we buy something manufactured there, but do not feel morally required to boycott them on account of t…

Google's situation is similar to many American authors' experience when confronted with the choice of 1) not publishing in China. and 2) publishing a censored version of their book.

The decision is not an easy one, even for those who support freedom of information. Those who deem Google's actions unethical often fail to realize that without Google or foreign books, Chinese internet users and readers will have less access to information.

Peter Hessler, an American writer detailed such the discussion of censorship in the West https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/03/09/travels-with-m...

"Western commentary about censorship often turns inward, portraying limitations in other countries in a way that celebrates our own values. One of the most striking qualities of foreign portrayals of censorship in China is the apparent lack of interest in Chinese readers and editors. "

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#23

Post by mirimir »

caibkai wrote: post #11
snek wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google Search provides information. Blocking access to information is, by the nature of the action, disenfranchising and oppressive. If Google were to re-enter the Chinese market, their Search product would either be controlled by the current government or they would be kicked out. I would argue that Google providing censored results is harmful to that 20%, so it is better to stay out.

Baidu has monopolized power in Chinese market as a search engine. It sold advertisement to fake hospital and ranked the advertisement as a top searching result. A young Chinese student died because of the fake hospital advertisement (Wei Zexi scandal). A censored google can still create more competition. How could it be harmful to that 20%?

Because everyone knows that Baidu is government-controlled. So google.cn, even though many would know that it's also compromised, would basically be a honeypot. It would be far better for access to Google to remain dependent on VPN and Tor. And in that regard, it'd be very cool if Google didn't block Tor exits.

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#24

Post by seanmcdirmid »

mirimir wrote: post #23
caibkai wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Baidu has monopolized power in Chinese market as a search engine. It sold advertisement to fake hospital and ranked the advertisement as a top searching result. A young Chinese student died because of the fake hospital advertisement (Wei Zexi scandal). A censored google can still create more competition. How could it be harmful to that 20%?

Because everyone knows that Baidu is government-controlled. So google.cn, even though many would know that it's also compromised, would basically be a honeypot. It would be far better for access to Google to remain dependent on VPN and Tor. And in that regard, it'd be very cool if Google didn't block Tor exits.

Baidu is not government controlled, just submissive to it. Though it operates under the credo of “ask for forgiveness rather than permission” like almost every other Chinese tech company, so even that relationship is complicated.

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#25

Post by codeka »

ronnier wrote: post #19
loukrazy wrote: post #14

If Google employees are pushing back projects with the US govt I can’t imagine this will sit well at all

My guess is, it’ll sit just fine with them and we won’t see any push back.

What makes you say that?

See, eg https://theintercept.com/2018/08/03/google-search-engine-chi...

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#26

Post by throwaway2048 »

xiii1408 wrote: post #8
c3534l wrote: post #2

It's really unfortunate that abiding by local laws and regulations is considered unethical. But even if we assume that there is no legal way for a company to operate ethically in China, is the world meant to close our borders to them entirely? 20% of the planet lives there and we do business with China every day when we buy something manufactured there, but do not feel morally required to boycott them on account of t…

No. It's not fair to justify building the machinery of a totalitarian state as simply "abiding by local laws and regulations." Not when the consequences involve clear violations of human rights. You don't have to look far to see how bad things have gotten recently in China, from abductions of booksellers in Hong Kong to an activist being carted away literally during a phone interview with Voice of America. When Weste…

Don't forget them placing 1 million Uyghurs (and counting) in "re-education camps" designed to destroy their culture and religion.

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#27

Post by justinjlynn »

throwaway2048 wrote: post #26
xiii1408 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. It's not fair to justify building the machinery of a totalitarian state as simply "abiding by local laws and regulations." Not when the consequences involve clear violations of human rights. You don't have to look far to see how bad things have gotten recently in China, from abductions of booksellers in Hong Kong to an activist being carted away literally during a phone interview with Voice of America. When Weste…

Don't forget them placing 1 million Uyghurs (and counting) in "re-education camps" designed to destroy their culture and religion.

You mean engaging in actions that meet the UN-accepted definition of genocide? May as well just call it genocide.

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#28

Post by Analemma_ »

amarkov wrote: post #10
ben_jones wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's really unfortunate that abiding by local laws and regulations is considered unethical. What about local laws in countries that are deeply homophobic? Is it unfortunate if countries don't hand over lists of gay users?

Certainly not. But is Google planning to hand over lists of users who search for banned terms? It seems like there's a big difference between handing over lists of users and restricting information.

> But is Google planning to hand over lists of users who search for banned terms?

Yes? That's so obvious I'm a little stunned you're even asking. If the government orders them to hand over that information, they won't have any choice.

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#29

Post by topmonk »

xiii1408 wrote: post #8
c3534l wrote: post #2

It's really unfortunate that abiding by local laws and regulations is considered unethical. But even if we assume that there is no legal way for a company to operate ethically in China, is the world meant to close our borders to them entirely? 20% of the planet lives there and we do business with China every day when we buy something manufactured there, but do not feel morally required to boycott them on account of t…

No. It's not fair to justify building the machinery of a totalitarian state as simply "abiding by local laws and regulations." Not when the consequences involve clear violations of human rights. You don't have to look far to see how bad things have gotten recently in China, from abductions of booksellers in Hong Kong to an activist being carted away literally during a phone interview with Voice of America. When Weste…

Aren't you asking Western companies to take a stand, in place of yourself?

Even if your moral position is correct, there should be a law made in the USA to do what you're talking about. Otherwise, less well known companies would be able to scoot under the radar, while more prominent ones would be taken down. So, to be fair, the onus is on you to stand up for what you believe in and campaign and vote for the ideas you want to bring about.

Pointing your finger at others and telling them what to do, while you do nothing yourself, all to support your own agenda, is lazy and shows a false sense of entitlement.

Re: Google's censored Chinese search engine: a catalogue of ethical violations?

#30

Post by reaperducer »

caibkai wrote: post #11
snek wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google Search provides information. Blocking access to information is, by the nature of the action, disenfranchising and oppressive. If Google were to re-enter the Chinese market, their Search product would either be controlled by the current government or they would be kicked out. I would argue that Google providing censored results is harmful to that 20%, so it is better to stay out.

Baidu has monopolized power in Chinese market as a search engine. It sold advertisement to fake hospital and ranked the advertisement as a top searching result. A young Chinese student died because of the fake hospital advertisement (Wei Zexi scandal). A censored google can still create more competition. How could it be harmful to that 20%?

A censored google can still create more competition.

A censored Google isn't more competition. It's just more of what already exists, with different branding.

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