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Some suddenly become accomplished artists or musicians with no previous training

blogs.scientificamerican.com

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Re: Some suddenly become accomplished artists or musicians with no previous training

#21

Post by schoen »

oblib wrote: post #15
jpmoyn wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Im not sure they got their attention because only initials were provided in the article, but i do agree with your sentiment. Also, art is such a subjective practice. If there was a mathematics case i would be much more compelled to believe this.

Here's one related to savant syndrome: "Daniel Tammet first came to worldwide attention in March, 2004 on international Pi Day (3/14 of course) when he recited, from memory, Pi to 22,514 decimal places." https://www.wisconsinmedicalsociety.org/professional/savant-...

However, Tammet has been a savant from childhood, so he's a case of a better-known phenomenon. He didn't suddenly acquire previously unknown unusual abilities in adulthood. (Learning conversational Icelandic in a week is amazing, but he already anticipated that he could do it!)

Re: Some suddenly become accomplished artists or musicians with no previous training

#23

Post by jdietrich »

defen wrote: post #7
ChuckMcM wrote: post #4

In a symmetric system are there documented cases of people becoming suddenly very mentally challenged? Or artists or musicians who suddenly one day could no longer paint or play?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yips

Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focal_dystonia

Re: Some suddenly become accomplished artists or musicians with no previous training

#24

Post by HenryTheHorse »

jancsika wrote: post #16
legohead wrote: post #9

Each of the stories listed are suspicious. They feel like the crop circle hoax to me -- something they planned well to get attention. Are there any provable cases?

Oliver Sacks had some case studies listed in his book "Musicophilia." One was a non-musician doctor who, after an injury, developed an obsession with Chopin's Fantasie Impromptu . He apparently bought a Steinway and learned the piece in a year with no instruction.

The story you are referring to is this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Cicoria

It's a fascinating story.

Re: Some suddenly become accomplished artists or musicians with no previous training

#25

Post by HenryTheHorse »

legohead wrote: post #9

Each of the stories listed are suspicious. They feel like the crop circle hoax to me -- something they planned well to get attention. Are there any provable cases?

> Are there any provable cases?

Dr. Tony Cicoria. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2007/07/23/a-bolt-from-th...

Re: Some suddenly become accomplished artists or musicians with no previous training

#26

Post by _Microft »

Funny, I've been wondering for years if something similar would be possible intentionally. Like deliberately adding relaxation and concentration to a new activity and at the same time becoming devoid of the conviction that one shouldn't be able to do what one currently does. Doing it instead of trying to do it.

Re: Some suddenly become accomplished artists or musicians with no previous training

#27

Post by ksdale »

jancsika wrote: post #11

Is there a control group of people who spend an equal amount of time and fervor investigating a new musical or artistic path without first having the "epiphany?" I had a friend in college with no prior musical training who decided his second year to become a classical guitarist. We kind of teased him at first because he clearly had no sudden music-related epiphanies nor any idea of the time involved to master an inst…

I'm way into golf and on the golf subreddit, there are regularly people who show up who ask about their chances of going pro as a 20-something or 30-something, and a chorus of people will respond that all pro golfers have tremendous natural ability (which may well be true) and that if you aren't already a great golfer without really practicing, you're not going to make it.

But every account I've ever read of a pro golfer's childhood (and I've probably read at least a dozen), indicates that almost without exception, they got obsessed with golf at a young age and every day they didn't have school, would get dropped off at the course in the morning when their parents went to work and practice until their parents picked them up on their way home from work. They got in a staggering amount of practice by the time they were teenagers, but because it happened utterly out of the limelight and was mostly unstructured, people chalk up their teenage virtuosity to "natural talent."

Re: Some suddenly become accomplished artists or musicians with no previous training

#28

Post by romwell »

The example with the musician (the case of K.A) in the article doesn't support the "suddenly" part of the title.

Specifically, that person knew how to play a bunch of songs on the piano - it just didn't click for him until a certain point in life.

If anything, that seems like something was missing from his picture that should have already been there. As in - not seeing the forest behind the tree for a while. It's not a sudden development, it's the opposite.

Of course someone who can play popular music has some form of understanding of basic music theory (chords, harmony, voicing, structure - etc). Just like someone who has been coding for a while has some form of understanding of things like data structures, loop invariants, computational complexity, etc. even if they haven't formally learned them first.

"Whereas he could play simple popular songs from rote memory before", the article says - well, at that point he already was a musician, even if he didn't know what the hell he was doing.

But that's how anybody learns - you do some activity quite a few times, then you start seeing the patterns, then it clicks and becomes your nature. That's why you have exercises - in music, math, science, dance, sport, languag - anything that people learn.

The surprising part is not how sudden the epiphany of seeing the structure came, but rather how awfully long it took and how far he got without seeing the structure.

It's like being able to write down the first 50 terms of the Fibonacci sequence (1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, 55, ...) from sheer memorization only, and only seeing the pattern that makes everything simple after doing it for years for fun.

Must've been awfully difficult.

------------------------

TL;DR: the K.A. example doesn't seem unusual or "sudden" - more like connecting the dots one day.

Re: Some suddenly become accomplished artists or musicians with no previous training

#29

Post by romwell »

_Microft wrote: post #26

Funny, I've been wondering for years if something similar would be possible intentionally. Like deliberately adding relaxation and concentration to a new activity and at the same time becoming devoid of the conviction that one shouldn't be able to do what one currently does. Doing it instead of trying to do it.

Yes, I think that's called "homework" :)

Re: Some suddenly become accomplished artists or musicians with no previous training

#30

Post by _Microft »

romwell wrote: post #29
_Microft wrote: post #26

Funny, I've been wondering for years if something similar would be possible intentionally. Like deliberately adding relaxation and concentration to a new activity and at the same time becoming devoid of the conviction that one shouldn't be able to do what one currently does. Doing it instead of trying to do it.

Yes, I think that's called "homework" :)

Haha :D
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