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Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

vanityfair.com

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Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#21

Post by _delirium »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #17
StavrosK wrote: post #12

Something the article doesn't mention (or that I didn't see when I skimmed it): The value of the entire Greek church is in the billions of euros, and nothing is taxed . The government asked them to be taxed a while ago, and the church said that, if they were taxed, they would have to stop charity work because they didn't have enough money. Meanwhile, the high priests wear 30k euro hats and ride around in limousines.…

>5 monasteries said that they evaluated the value of their properties at around 20b of today's euros (this is just for 5 monasteries). You can imagine how taxing the church would pay off a good chunk of the debt So are you proposing that they instigate a one-off property tax on everyone in Greece or just on the monasteries. The reason that 5 monasteries have so much valuable land is not necessarily that they are rich…

The "value" of the monasteries also seems like it requires assumptions about what would be permitted. I imagine Mount Athos, for example, could be quite valuable as a tourist and resort destination--- could make some nice boutique hotels out of those historic monasteries. But since secular development has been banned on the peninsula for centuries, I can't imagine that actually happening. If we assume that Mouth Athos will stay off-limits to secular development, and assume that the removal/sale of historic items from the monasteries wouldn't be permitted, the value of their land and holdings (e.g. manuscripts) is much lower, because it isn't commercially exploitable.

Now shell companies owned by the church engaged in normal for-profit business, those seem pretty reasonable to tax.

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#22

Post by jakarta »

sx wrote: post #18
jakarta wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tax evasion hurts when a government owes tons of money that it cannot pay back with the current tax revenue coming in.

But this is not the cause of the economic problems. The more appropriate solution would be to shut down the money-loosing public businesses (like the train org) and lay off as many people as needed from the public sector. This way, they will reduce government spending and will also allow people to do something more productive. More taxation will just slow down the economy even further.

Greece has a debt crisis. The state borrowed some €216 billion and now cannot pay it. This isn't just some slow down caused by the business cycle that can be fixed by reducing taxes.

Tax evasion costs the Greek government an estimated $20B a year. I would say that improving tax collection would significantly help Greece make payments on their debt. You have a big problem when there are millionaire doctors not paying a cent in taxes to the state.

Sure, they have money wasting state enterprises, they could try to privatize some of them - but it is something that should not be done in a hasty manner. Rushes to privatize have led to massive failures (see Russia, parts of Latin America).

So in order to get out of this mess they should 1. Restructure the debt to get a longer payment schedule 2. Improve their ability to collect taxes so that they can make some of those payments. 3. Work to privatize certain state owned businesses / infrastructure.

... or drop out of the EU, devalue currency, grow GDP

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#23

Post by _delirium »

patrickgzill wrote: post #19
sx wrote: post #15

The article points out many of the problems of the greek economy, like: * The inflated public sector * The power of the unions over the government * The corruption in certain areas of the public sector (e.g. hospitals) * The loose observance of laws But it mischaracterizes several important points, as it is commons with articles that describe such complicated issues after a minimal exposure of the journalist to the s…

I upvoted you because you make a valid point ... what exactly, are the government services that Greeks who "should" be paying their taxes actually receiving?

One big group of tax evaders are doctors, who like to play both sides of the game. They accept large government subsidies and equipment on the one hand, and run off-the-books side businesses with that equipment on the other hand. Sometimes the side business isn't even very "side": doctors frequently demand and receive under-the-table cash payments to "expedite" service in the state hospitals.

They also, of course, didn't pay tuition for their medical degrees--- their education was paid for by the people who actually pay taxes.

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#24

Post by StavrosK »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #17
StavrosK wrote: post #12

Something the article doesn't mention (or that I didn't see when I skimmed it): The value of the entire Greek church is in the billions of euros, and nothing is taxed . The government asked them to be taxed a while ago, and the church said that, if they were taxed, they would have to stop charity work because they didn't have enough money. Meanwhile, the high priests wear 30k euro hats and ride around in limousines.…

>5 monasteries said that they evaluated the value of their properties at around 20b of today's euros (this is just for 5 monasteries). You can imagine how taxing the church would pay off a good chunk of the debt So are you proposing that they instigate a one-off property tax on everyone in Greece or just on the monasteries. The reason that 5 monasteries have so much valuable land is not necessarily that they are rich…

That's not what I said. I said they should tax the church's income.

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#25

Post by sx »

jakarta wrote: post #22
sx wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But this is not the cause of the economic problems. The more appropriate solution would be to shut down the money-loosing public businesses (like the train org) and lay off as many people as needed from the public sector. This way, they will reduce government spending and will also allow people to do something more productive. More taxation will just slow down the economy even further.

Greece has a debt crisis. The state borrowed some €216 billion and now cannot pay it. This isn't just some slow down caused by the business cycle that can be fixed by reducing taxes. Tax evasion costs the Greek government an estimated $20B a year. I would say that improving tax collection would significantly help Greece make payments on their debt. You have a big problem when there are millionaire doctors not paying…

You are arguing as if the Greek government is entitled at peoples' money no questions asked.

What you are suggesting is to keep wasting the tax money to pay for the inflated public sector and all the money wasting state companies.

They should first fix the problem, stop the wasting, and then try to collect more taxes.

Reducing tax evasion, without solving the root cause, will help nobody, it will just get more money wasted.

As far as your last point goes, I am not totally against dept restructuring. As long as they make sure they solve the root case of the problem

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#26

Post by mmphosis »

I don't think that the "money as debt" problem is specific to Greece. You know that your country, province/state, city/county is probably in similar circumstances. And the problem is not about local people not being able to trust their fellow people. The problem is usury: banks, and the financial systems that loan money where there is no money to pay back the compounded interest.

Here is the top comment on this http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2010/09/08/bank-rate-decision-... cbc story about the Bank Of Canada.

Watch the movie: http://ohcanadamovie.com/

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered"

Thomas Jefferson 1816

Did you know that PRIVATE Banks print 85% of our money supply in Canada and 100% of the money supply in the US ( the Federal Reserve )

1 they print money out of thin air

2 lend it to our governments with interest

3 fiat currency

4 fractional reserves ( for every $ 1 printed they can loan another $ 9 out of thin air

5 they control the money supply and devalue YOUR money in order to profit

Our monetary system is the biggest SCAM going

Banks love a DEBT ECONOMY & they love Government Deficits – the more debt the dump into the system the higher the profits they make

The Bank Of Canada (Central Bank Of Canada) used to be under the authority of the Federal Finance Minister. Ostensibly, to this day, it still is. But there is a catch that most people don't know about. From 1934 until 1974 it created currency and the issuance of credit for the PEOPLE OF CANADA The interest on these loans was put back into Canada and was used to build the Trans Canada Hwy and various infrastructure

In 1974, however, when Canada joined the G7, which became the G8, which is now the G20, it gave up it's monetary control and credit issuance to private banking cartels that run most of the western industrial nations (Germany, England, France, Switzerland, Italy etc). The Canadian National Debt has since gone from 18 billion in 1974, to now 500 billion in 2009

"Once a nation parts with the control of Its currency and credit, it matters not who makes that nations laws. Usury, once in control, will wreck any nation. Until the control of the issue of currency and credit is restored to government and recognized as its most conspicuous and sacred responsibility, all talk of the sovereignty of parliament and of democracy is idle and futile."

William Lyon Mackenzie King 10th Prime Minister of Canada.

"History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and its issuance."

James Madison

"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning".

Henry Ford

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#27

Post by jakarta »

sx wrote: post #25
jakarta wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Greece has a debt crisis. The state borrowed some €216 billion and now cannot pay it. This isn't just some slow down caused by the business cycle that can be fixed by reducing taxes. Tax evasion costs the Greek government an estimated $20B a year. I would say that improving tax collection would significantly help Greece make payments on their debt. You have a big problem when there are millionaire doctors not paying…

You are arguing as if the Greek government is entitled at peoples' money no questions asked. What you are suggesting is to keep wasting the tax money to pay for the inflated public sector and all the money wasting state companies. They should first fix the problem, stop the wasting, and then try to collect more taxes. Reducing tax evasion, without solving the root cause, will help nobody, it will just get more money…

And you are arguing as if the Greek government is entitled to no taxes.

Greece provides its citizens with loads of social services. Someone/something has to pay for that. In the other EU countries, you know - the ones without sovereign debt crises (Germany for example), the taxes paid by citizens help pay for some of those services.

In Greece that doesn't happen because of the rampant tax evasion. So instead the government lies about its budget deficit, borrows tons of debt, and is now hoping for a bailout from some of the more fiscally responsible EU nations. German tax paying citizens are likely going to have to help subsidize Greek citizens who are unwilling to pay taxes.

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#28

Post by mikebike »

code_duck wrote: post #10

Nice that we can still rely on Vanity Fair, the New Yorker and (sometimes) the Atlantic for journalism this thorough. Greece seems insane, of course - but there's always Italy.

Why the qualifier for the Atlantic? I find it tends to have more journalism than VF and New Yorker, which have more cultural content. In particular, the New Yorker will typically have one good piece of journalism per issue, where the Atlantic will have multiple.

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#29

Post by brc »

I thought that was an excellent, well written and entertaining article. Well worth the time if you are interested.

To me the only solution is to remove themselves from the EU and go back to their own currency. And for some type of structured devaluation of their existing debts to gradually -rather than overnight- allow the other european banks to write off the losses. Though I'm not sure how you could get it to work out in practice. But the inflation rate and deficits were all a sham, I'm sure they can come up with some sort of sham valuation on untraded paper.

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#30

Post by sx »

jakarta wrote: post #27
sx wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are arguing as if the Greek government is entitled at peoples' money no questions asked. What you are suggesting is to keep wasting the tax money to pay for the inflated public sector and all the money wasting state companies. They should first fix the problem, stop the wasting, and then try to collect more taxes. Reducing tax evasion, without solving the root cause, will help nobody, it will just get more money…

And you are arguing as if the Greek government is entitled to no taxes. Greece provides its citizens with loads of social services. Someone/something has to pay for that. In the other EU countries, you know - the ones without sovereign debt crises (Germany for example), the taxes paid by citizens help pay for some of those services. In Greece that doesn't happen because of the rampant tax evasion. So instead the gove…

Greece does not provide its citizens with more social services than other European countries, I would say that they actually provide less. And although you are right about the deficit, again, the main problem is the inflated public sector with all its associated problems, like high pensions at a young age.

The private sector should not be burdened with this, and actually, it cannot afford to pay for this burden. If collecting more taxes is the solution here, it's certain that Greece will go bankrupt.

Regarding Germany vs the other European countries, what is easy to see is the direct contribution of Germany to the EU but the indirect benefits that Germany got because of the fixed currency are more difficult to see although very very important for them.

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