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Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

vanityfair.com

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Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#11

Post by sspencer »

jsnell wrote: post #5
narkee wrote: post #3

Well written, although it reads more like an opinion piece than an objective report. If Greece were a business, it would become bankrupt and be dissolved. I guess that realistically can't happen for an entire country - but they really need a solid reboot.

It was written by Michael Lewis, so I suspect the primary goal was for it to be an entertaining story. Which it was, I hope he's working on a book on the subject.

I agree! He's one of my favorite "light" writers on financial matters. His article about Iceland (http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2009/04/iceland2...) is a classic.

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#12

Post by StavrosK »

Something the article doesn't mention (or that I didn't see when I skimmed it):

The value of the entire Greek church is in the billions of euros, and nothing is taxed. The government asked them to be taxed a while ago, and the church said that, if they were taxed, they would have to stop charity work because they didn't have enough money. Meanwhile, the high priests wear 30k euro hats and ride around in limousines.

On the other hand, if they did get taxed, a good chunk of it would end up in the pockets of politicians and big companies, as usual. The whole situation isn't very encouraging for citizens who pay taxes...

EDIT: This article [1] mentions that the church put the value of its property at 700m euros. External parties place it at 2-15b euros, while at some point, years ago, 5 monasteries said that they evaluated the value of their properties at around 20b of today's euros (this is just for 5 monasteries). You can imagine how taxing the church would pay off a good chunk of the debt, but, in Greece, you don't get taxed when you have this much money.

[1]: http://dialogoi.enet.gr/post/νάνος-ή-γίγαντας-η-εκκλησιαστικ...

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#14

Post by oiuygtfrtghyju »

narkee wrote: post #3

Well written, although it reads more like an opinion piece than an objective report. If Greece were a business, it would become bankrupt and be dissolved. I guess that realistically can't happen for an entire country - but they really need a solid reboot.

Bankruptcy can happen for a country.

Happy exporting something to Somalia and getting a Somali currency bank check as payment - No?

It's trickier to go bankrupt if your country use somebody else's money. Would you sell to Greece and accept euros you can spend in Germany - Yes ?

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#15

Post by sx »

The article points out many of the problems of the greek economy, like:

* The inflated public sector

* The power of the unions over the government

* The corruption in certain areas of the public sector (e.g. hospitals)

* The loose observance of laws

But it mischaracterizes several important points, as it is commons with articles that describe such complicated issues after a minimal exposure of the journalist to the situation:

* Tax evasion does not hurt the real economy. Especially not in a country like Greece where the public sector is so inefficient. It might be unfair for some but it doesn't really hurt the economy. In some cases it enables smart and motivated entrepreneurs to start their businesses.

* Most public sector workers are not corrupted but they are part of the problem simply because of the fact that they work in the public sector. Think of DMV x1000.

* The majority of Greeks are against the unions and would like to see the public sector shrink.

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#16

Post by jakarta »

sx wrote: post #15

The article points out many of the problems of the greek economy, like: * The inflated public sector * The power of the unions over the government * The corruption in certain areas of the public sector (e.g. hospitals) * The loose observance of laws But it mischaracterizes several important points, as it is commons with articles that describe such complicated issues after a minimal exposure of the journalist to the s…

Tax evasion hurts when a government owes tons of money that it cannot pay back with the current tax revenue coming in.

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#17

Post by pbhjpbhj »

StavrosK wrote: post #12

Something the article doesn't mention (or that I didn't see when I skimmed it): The value of the entire Greek church is in the billions of euros, and nothing is taxed . The government asked them to be taxed a while ago, and the church said that, if they were taxed, they would have to stop charity work because they didn't have enough money. Meanwhile, the high priests wear 30k euro hats and ride around in limousines.…

>5 monasteries said that they evaluated the value of their properties at around 20b of today's euros (this is just for 5 monasteries). You can imagine how taxing the church would pay off a good chunk of the debt

So are you proposing that they instigate a one-off property tax on everyone in Greece or just on the monasteries. The reason that 5 monasteries have so much valuable land is not necessarily that they are rich (the meals described in the article and lifestyle aren't exactly lavish either) but because they own large areas of land which when they adopted them 100s of years ago were probably unwanted, but now (speculating) are probably places where holiday resorts would be built.

Demanding a piece of a valuation of the properties would I imagine mean many such properties would be sold off and a great swathe of Greek heritage from the last millenium or so would then be following all the unpaid taxes and disappearing.

Perhaps you could explain further how you propose to get cash out of monastic property?

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#18

Post by sx »

jakarta wrote: post #16
sx wrote: post #15

The article points out many of the problems of the greek economy, like: * The inflated public sector * The power of the unions over the government * The corruption in certain areas of the public sector (e.g. hospitals) * The loose observance of laws But it mischaracterizes several important points, as it is commons with articles that describe such complicated issues after a minimal exposure of the journalist to the s…

Tax evasion hurts when a government owes tons of money that it cannot pay back with the current tax revenue coming in.

But this is not the cause of the economic problems. The more appropriate solution would be to shut down the money-loosing public businesses (like the train org) and lay off as many people as needed from the public sector.

This way, they will reduce government spending and will also allow people to do something more productive.

More taxation will just slow down the economy even further.

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#19

Post by patrickgzill »

sx wrote: post #15

The article points out many of the problems of the greek economy, like: * The inflated public sector * The power of the unions over the government * The corruption in certain areas of the public sector (e.g. hospitals) * The loose observance of laws But it mischaracterizes several important points, as it is commons with articles that describe such complicated issues after a minimal exposure of the journalist to the s…

I upvoted you because you make a valid point ... what exactly, are the government services that Greeks who "should" be paying their taxes actually receiving?

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#20

Post by [deleted] »

sx wrote: post #18
jakarta wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tax evasion hurts when a government owes tons of money that it cannot pay back with the current tax revenue coming in.

But this is not the cause of the economic problems. The more appropriate solution would be to shut down the money-loosing public businesses (like the train org) and lay off as many people as needed from the public sector. This way, they will reduce government spending and will also allow people to do something more productive. More taxation will just slow down the economy even further.

[deleted]
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