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UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

bbc.co.uk

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Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#21

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

danpalmer wrote: post #15
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> EU rules don't allow article 50 to be reverted Those rules can be changed by the unanimous opinion of European states. Practically speaking, the deal Britain had before is gone. It might be able to re-enter if it gives up its asterisks, though. Bone-headed move by its people, either way.

> Bone-headed move by its people By a minority I'd like to clarify. 51.8% voted for it, of a 72% turnout, of an electorate that is only around 69% of the population. That works out at around 25% of the population voting for it.

Young people were excluded from the referendum vote.

Certain demographics living outside of the UK - who are normally allowed to vote in elections - were excluded from the referendum vote.

A non-trivial number of ballots for foreign residents were sent out too late to be counted.

The original Parliamentary Act for the referendum explicitly defined it as advisory.

Most referenda are run on the basis that a super-majority is required for any significant constitutional change.

The suggestion that the referendum was truly representative and binding is an horrific travesty of democracy.

Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#22

Post by dkersten »

danpalmer wrote: post #15
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> EU rules don't allow article 50 to be reverted Those rules can be changed by the unanimous opinion of European states. Practically speaking, the deal Britain had before is gone. It might be able to re-enter if it gives up its asterisks, though. Bone-headed move by its people, either way.

> Bone-headed move by its people By a minority I'd like to clarify. 51.8% voted for it, of a 72% turnout, of an electorate that is only around 69% of the population. That works out at around 25% of the population voting for it.

> of a 72% turnout

If the other 28% disagree, then they really should have voted against...

Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#23

Post by mattgibson »

Nursie wrote: post #17
danpalmer wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bone-headed move by its people By a minority I'd like to clarify. 51.8% voted for it, of a 72% turnout, of an electorate that is only around 69% of the population. That works out at around 25% of the population voting for it.

I dislike this argument. By that line of reasoning, every government we've had in my lifetime has been illegitimate, elected only by a tiny minority of the population.

It's arguably more significant in this case as those that didn't vote were around 75% in favour of remain. It's not common to hear of such a differential between the intentions of those who did not vote compared to those who did.

Had everyone voted, remain would have won by a large margin.

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2016/10/24/brexit-is-not-the-w...

Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#24

Post by PeachPlum »

matthewrudy wrote: post #5

This is only useful if the binding vote is to decide whether to accept the deal or revert Article 50.

Sorry, no can do:

The process for withdrawing from the European Union, Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, HM Government

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachm...

Presented to Parliament by the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs by Command of Her Majesty, February 2016

2.1 The result of the referendum on the UK’s membership of the European Union will be final.

Government would have a democratic duty to give effect to the electorate’s decision. The Prime Minister made clear to the House of Commons that “if the British people vote to leave, there is only one way to bring that about, namely to trigger Article 50 of the Treaties and begin the process of exit, and the British people would rightly expect that to start straight away”.

Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#25

Post by ealexhudson »

conatus wrote: post #18

The OP is a bit misleading. At the New Statesman George Eaton is reporting that the vote will be "take or leave it". Important. https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/11/david-davis...

Not just that, but Davis confirmed no deal == no vote. Indeed, it's difficult to see how they could have a sensible vote in the absence of a deal to vote on, but since this is the most likely outcome as we stand (the UK Govt have no solution to the Irish border issue, and there's a substantial rebellion in the Tory party against paying the EU any money) then the most likely outcome is still no vote :(

Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#26

Post by PeachPlum »

Nursie wrote: post #9
matthewrudy wrote: post #5

This is only useful if the binding vote is to decide whether to accept the deal or revert Article 50.

The idea that Article 50 is unilaterally reversible is an odd one. I know that one of the people that helped write it says it was written with that intent, but the wording gives no indication or mechanism to reverse it. And if it is unilaterally reversible, surely that's a really bad thing? There are two reasons I can think of for that. Firstly, countries might start to use it as a form of leverage and brinkmanship i…

see also:

Presented to Parliament by the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs by Command of Her Majesty, February 2016

2.1 The result of the referendum on the UK’s membership of the European Union will be final.

Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#27

Post by eertami »

alex_duf wrote: post #11

I feel like this makes the situation even worse as we either get access to what Europe and UK negotiated or we leave without a deal... It looks like a disguised way of putting at least some of the responsibility back into the parliament as a way to say "not my fault"

>as a way to say "not my fault"

This has been standard operating procedure for the last 7 years. It looks that way because it is.

Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#28

Post by sverige »

untog wrote: post #7
blibble wrote: post #3

not really sure why this is that interesting, the UK will still drop out of the EU in March 2019 even if Parliament rejects the deal so it's not a case of "Parliament rejects, UK stays in"

It's interesting because it will allow debate, something that has been in very short supply during this whole process. The British people deserve to know what is going to happen to them in 2019, even if it's irreversible. The current government has made it quite clear they don't agree with that, so they'll have to be forced into it.

> It's interesting because it will allow debate, something that has been in very short supply during this whole process.

Are you referring to Parliamentary debate about whether some deal can be cut with the EU? I recall a lot of public debate before the vote itself, and a lot since, if that's what you're referring to.

Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#29

Post by PeachPlum »

mattgibson wrote: post #23
Nursie wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dislike this argument. By that line of reasoning, every government we've had in my lifetime has been illegitimate, elected only by a tiny minority of the population.

It's arguably more significant in this case as those that didn't vote were around 75% in favour of remain. It's not common to hear of such a differential between the intentions of those who did not vote compared to those who did. Had everyone voted, remain would have won by a large margin. http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2016/10/24/brexit-is-not-the-w...

That's the thing about referenda, if you want to have a say in the outcome, you have to cast your vote, not sit at home

Presented to Parliament by the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs by Command of Her Majesty, February 2016

2.1 The result of the referendum on the UK’s membership of the European Union will be final.

Re: UK parliament to get binding vote on final Brexit deal

#30

Post by SllX »

danpalmer wrote: post #15
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> EU rules don't allow article 50 to be reverted Those rules can be changed by the unanimous opinion of European states. Practically speaking, the deal Britain had before is gone. It might be able to re-enter if it gives up its asterisks, though. Bone-headed move by its people, either way.

> Bone-headed move by its people By a minority I'd like to clarify. 51.8% voted for it, of a 72% turnout, of an electorate that is only around 69% of the population. That works out at around 25% of the population voting for it.

This type of turnout is not uncommon in democratic states with voter turnout in the UK in particular hovering around that figure[0] since 1945. Yet they still decide laws, amend constitutions, control their military and command a domestic monopoly on sanctioned violence.

By the laws and constitution[1] of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, the people voted for Brexit.

[0] http://www.ukpolitical.info/Turnout45.htm

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_United_Kin...

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