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Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

projekte.sueddeutsche.de

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Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#21

Post by crummy »

wjnc wrote: post #8

Dear Herr Krach, thank you for your letter. I think you misunderstand how business works. Apple is a profit seeking corporation. Profits we make, we hope to distribute to our shareholders. Paying taxes is an obligation with which we comply, both to the letter and in spirit. We meet such obligations, but not nilly-willy. Our shareholders would not look kindly upon executives who pay more taxes than necessary. Avoidanc…

Tim Cook doesn't always act at the whim of his shareholders, though: http://articles.latimes.com/2014/mar/01/business/la-fi-tn-ap...

> Danhof had spoken earlier in the meeting, criticizing Apple's connection to trade industry groups that believe people are causing global warming. Later, Danhof asked Cook if he would promise to commit to projects that help the environment or fulfill other social justice aims only if they also help Apple's bottom line.

> Cook seemed to be trying not to jump out of his seat.

> "When we work on making our devices accessible by the blind, I don't consider the bloody ROI" (return on investment), Cook said.

> "When I think about doing the right thing," he said, "I don't think about an ROI."

> "If that's a hard line for you," Cook continued, "then you should get out of the stock."

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#22

Post by blowski »

wjnc wrote: post #8

Dear Herr Krach, thank you for your letter. I think you misunderstand how business works. Apple is a profit seeking corporation. Profits we make, we hope to distribute to our shareholders. Paying taxes is an obligation with which we comply, both to the letter and in spirit. We meet such obligations, but not nilly-willy. Our shareholders would not look kindly upon executives who pay more taxes than necessary. Avoidanc…

As consumers, we can use the market to pressure companies into paying a fairer amount of tax. As voters, we can use the government. As wealthy citizens, we can do both.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#23

Post by wjnc »

jarym wrote: post #11
wjnc wrote: post #8

Dear Herr Krach, thank you for your letter. I think you misunderstand how business works. Apple is a profit seeking corporation. Profits we make, we hope to distribute to our shareholders. Paying taxes is an obligation with which we comply, both to the letter and in spirit. We meet such obligations, but not nilly-willy. Our shareholders would not look kindly upon executives who pay more taxes than necessary. Avoidanc…

Tax evasion IS illegal, tax avoidance is not. That's a legal point that's worth keeping in mind.

Darn, I mixed them up. Fixed it.

Local news in the Netherlands is that our tax office gave Proctor and Gamble a few hundred million dollar tax windfall, by error. I don't look angrily upon P&G. They asked for a deal and got a super sweet one. It's the tax offices that mess this stuff up. One European tax office that coordinates these taxes and ruling could solve a lot. Then the mess would be, which country gains the taxes / profits and all hell in European government rightly ensues..

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#24

Post by barrkel »

wjnc wrote: post #8

Dear Herr Krach, thank you for your letter. I think you misunderstand how business works. Apple is a profit seeking corporation. Profits we make, we hope to distribute to our shareholders. Paying taxes is an obligation with which we comply, both to the letter and in spirit. We meet such obligations, but not nilly-willy. Our shareholders would not look kindly upon executives who pay more taxes than necessary. Avoidanc…

So, should Apple start selling cigarettes if that raises the profit rate? Perhaps move into prostitution in countries where it is legal?

Legality is a red herring.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#25

Post by jacquesm »

wjnc wrote: post #8

Dear Herr Krach, thank you for your letter. I think you misunderstand how business works. Apple is a profit seeking corporation. Profits we make, we hope to distribute to our shareholders. Paying taxes is an obligation with which we comply, both to the letter and in spirit. We meet such obligations, but not nilly-willy. Our shareholders would not look kindly upon executives who pay more taxes than necessary. Avoidanc…

Dear Tim,

You don't understand how shares work. Shareholders can only benefit from shares in two ways: through speculation about the share price or through dividends. I'm kind of disappointed that I'd have to explain to a man of your stature that money that Apple parks abroad will not benefit the shareholders except in the most indirect ways.

If Apple brought home their overseas funds then it would benefit the US and Apple shareholders in general in two ways:

The taxes paid would go towards infrastructure, education, health care and other items that benefit all people in our society, and by extension also to us shareholders.

Money left over could be used to pay dividends to shareholders or to do tech acquisitions or long term investments in Apple projects which would benefit the shareholders in a more direct fashion.

Having money parked abroad waiting for a tax amnesty that may never happen does not have these positive effects and essentially ties up a lot of Apple capital in ways that are not beneficial to anybody except for the banks that get to lend this money out at prime rates while not paying Apple much of anything.

best regards

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#26

Post by [deleted] »

mrleinad wrote: post #14
wjnc wrote: post #8

Dear Herr Krach, thank you for your letter. I think you misunderstand how business works. Apple is a profit seeking corporation. Profits we make, we hope to distribute to our shareholders. Paying taxes is an obligation with which we comply, both to the letter and in spirit. We meet such obligations, but not nilly-willy. Our shareholders would not look kindly upon executives who pay more taxes than necessary. Avoidanc…

"Evasion of taxes is not illegal" Yes. Yes it is.

[deleted]

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#28

Post by PhasmaFelis »

wjnc wrote: post #8

Dear Herr Krach, thank you for your letter. I think you misunderstand how business works. Apple is a profit seeking corporation. Profits we make, we hope to distribute to our shareholders. Paying taxes is an obligation with which we comply, both to the letter and in spirit. We meet such obligations, but not nilly-willy. Our shareholders would not look kindly upon executives who pay more taxes than necessary. Avoidanc…

There's maybe an interesting illustration here of the difference between morals ("do the right thing") and ethics ("follow the rules"). A lot of people like to emphasize that they've "acted ethically", knowing that people will misunderstand that as "I did the right thing" when they actually mean "I did everything I could technically get away with".

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#29

Post by JorgeGT »

blowski wrote: post #15
cjsuk wrote: post #2

I think we can bitch all we like and nothing will happen. International taxation is complicated and part of a multinational's business model revolves around exploiting that for shareholder gain. What this points to is that we need a new global trade and taxation agreement for handling this. But the policy makers don't want that because they benefit from it. Ergo, it'll always be like this. At best you can add additio…

People said the same about slavery. Change _is_ possible, but it requires a lot of patience.

Problem is, it was not a lot of patience what ended slavery in the US, it was a lot of violence.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#30

Post by hiisukun »

I have nothing against companies minimising their taxes in legal ways. I understand the various incentives at play, and it makes quite some sense - all parties concerned appear to be acting predictably.

However: I do take issue with companies minimising their tax in ways that are not legal, but appear legal unless discovered.

I haven't the time or knowledge of various countries' tax laws to discover which is the case in this round of leaks, and unfortunately it seems the above two views are conflated in all the articles on the subject I have so far read. It'd be great if this caused some illegally hidden/minimised/shuffled/moved profits to be taxed appropriately, but it is all too easy to covet the rich man's "hidden wealth" and proclaim his methods "cheating" without knowing whether they were simply the same as you claiming your dry cleaning.

p.s. The adult in me suspects that is (as with most things) isn't a black and white issue; that the line between "legal tax minimisation" and "only legal so long as you don't find out about this part you have no way of finding out about" is both bent and blurry.

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