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The Disappearing American Grad Student

nytimes.com

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Re: The Disappearing American Grad Student

#21

Post by yuvalmer »

ll931110 wrote: post #12

FYI, many top schools (MIT, Harvard, etc.) have explicit quota on how many international undergrads are admitted per year (at MIT it's about 120 students, or 10 percent of undergrads). There is no such limit at grad level, since the money typically comes from research groups and grants, so the limiting factor is really the research group's budget.

I didn't know about this quota, but it doesn't really matter. The main point, which the article didn't mention, is that being an undergrad international student is far more difficult. First, the high schools exams can be different and students might not be eligible to apply. Then there's tuition cost. How many Chinese and Indians can afford ~40K/year not including room and other expenses? Foreign students cannot apply for scholarship.

It makes much more sense to study almost for free in India/China/Finland/etc. and then do a GRE and apply to grad school in the US. PhD students don't need to pay tuition and even get a monthly stipend. Also many MS students get some sort of scholarship (but not all).

Re: The Disappearing American Grad Student

#22

Post by c517402 »

rdtsc wrote: post #14
gervase wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't speak to overall statistical numbers, but of the 75+ international graduate students that I've spoken to, I would estimate at least 85% plan to stay in the U.S. I find this particularly surprising given that their status is essentially that of indentured servants; their advisors can deport them at any time with only 14 days of notice. This one-way power dynamic can produce cruel, callous treatment and mercile…

My friend quit his postdoc with a prestigious researcher in his field after witnessing the abuse the international students in the same group were subjected to.

My friend stopped graduate school at a MS and didn’t pursue a PhD because all the American grad students were forced to take teaching assistantships while the foreign grad students were given research assistantships.

Re: The Disappearing American Grad Student

#23

Post by tomaha »

khuey wrote: post #17
surfmike wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Foreigners who went to grad school are very heavily represented in Silicon Valley. Perhaps going all the way for a PhD is not worth it (debatable, some of my CS PhD friends have done incredibly well) but a Masters is definitely a strong path to success.

The extra H1-B spots for advanced degree holders may have something to do with that.

Or the $500k+ you can earn. Most of the people in that region have at least a masters degree and likely more.

Re: The Disappearing American Grad Student

#24

Post by meric »

aaron-lebo wrote: post #19
kristopolous wrote: post #16

They make a single mention of what could be a significant contributing factor; student debt. A quick google search for India and China show that many of their top public universities charge ~$300 and ~$800/year while UC Berkeley is over $14,000. After 4 years, with on-campus housing the first year, the Berkeley student owes about $72,000 while the Indian student owes $1,200. As far as the income differences between t…

Not sure you can compare them so directly. $800 is an unobtainable sum (?) for 1 billion Chinese/Indians. I'd also wonder about the difference in quality between UC Berkeley and a lot of those colleges. They are probably very good but US colleges tend to dominate world rankings (partially why everyone goes to them). If outsiders are willing to spend money in your schools, what happens to prices? I'm also unsure about…

$800 is about the monthly salary for so many Chinese I’m finding it hard to think it is unobtainable.

Re: The Disappearing American Grad Student

#25

Post by [deleted] »

gervase wrote: post #11
ralusek wrote: post #5

Do we have any numbers of how many of these foreign individuals stay in the country after graduation? When you think about how immigration works, immigrants are very disproportionately likely to be high-performing individuals, given the criteria for them to enter the country. If they stay in the country to contribute to the economy after graduation, then all I can say is that I'm glad they still think that this is a…

I can't speak to overall statistical numbers, but of the 75+ international graduate students that I've spoken to, I would estimate at least 85% plan to stay in the U.S. I find this particularly surprising given that their status is essentially that of indentured servants; their advisors can deport them at any time with only 14 days of notice. This one-way power dynamic can produce cruel, callous treatment and mercile…

[deleted]

Re: The Disappearing American Grad Student

#26

Post by ll931110 »

yuvalmer wrote: post #21
ll931110 wrote: post #12

FYI, many top schools (MIT, Harvard, etc.) have explicit quota on how many international undergrads are admitted per year (at MIT it's about 120 students, or 10 percent of undergrads). There is no such limit at grad level, since the money typically comes from research groups and grants, so the limiting factor is really the research group's budget.

I didn't know about this quota, but it doesn't really matter. The main point, which the article didn't mention, is that being an undergrad international student is far more difficult. First, the high schools exams can be different and students might not be eligible to apply. Then there's tuition cost. How many Chinese and Indians can afford ~40K/year not including room and other expenses? Foreign students cannot appl…

Check UT Austin, they admit a ton of international students every year. Undoubtedly UT Austin is a decent school, but it also milks a lot of money from international students.

https://utexas.app.box.com/v/2016report

There are two parts in your point. One, the exam. SAT/high school grade is basically a joke for India/China students, which can send a town of 2400 kids. Spending one or two years preparing and you can pass whatever exam set, SAT or ACT or anything. Two, the tuition fee. You clearly underestimate the financial ability of wealthy Asian families, and I had talked to people who pay the entire tuition fee (200k+) for kids to study in four years. Of course not everyone can pay that, but schools also offer partial scholarship (and thus it's quite common for students to come with 50 or 75 percent scholarship).

Re: The Disappearing American Grad Student

#27

Post by aaron-lebo »

meric wrote: post #24
aaron-lebo wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure you can compare them so directly. $800 is an unobtainable sum (?) for 1 billion Chinese/Indians. I'd also wonder about the difference in quality between UC Berkeley and a lot of those colleges. They are probably very good but US colleges tend to dominate world rankings (partially why everyone goes to them). If outsiders are willing to spend money in your schools, what happens to prices? I'm also unsure about…

$800 is about the monthly salary for so many Chinese I’m finding it hard to think it is unobtainable.

Was Googling around for stats. Sorry if the link isn't good, but:

https://geopoliticalfutures.com/china-is-still-really-poor/

In 2010, only 11.2 percent (almost 150 million people) lived on less than $1.90 a day. Not shown above is that 27.2 percent (almost 360 million people) lived on less than $3.10 a day.

So that's what, a bigger population than the US who live on less than $1k a year?

Re: The Disappearing American Grad Student

#28

Post by gozur88 »

meric wrote: post #24
aaron-lebo wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure you can compare them so directly. $800 is an unobtainable sum (?) for 1 billion Chinese/Indians. I'd also wonder about the difference in quality between UC Berkeley and a lot of those colleges. They are probably very good but US colleges tend to dominate world rankings (partially why everyone goes to them). If outsiders are willing to spend money in your schools, what happens to prices? I'm also unsure about…

$800 is about the monthly salary for so many Chinese I’m finding it hard to think it is unobtainable.

That's more than double the median Chinese wage.

Granted, that's still a lot of people in absolute terms.

Re: The Disappearing American Grad Student

#29

Post by kristopolous »

aaron-lebo wrote: post #19
kristopolous wrote: post #16

They make a single mention of what could be a significant contributing factor; student debt. A quick google search for India and China show that many of their top public universities charge ~$300 and ~$800/year while UC Berkeley is over $14,000. After 4 years, with on-campus housing the first year, the Berkeley student owes about $72,000 while the Indian student owes $1,200. As far as the income differences between t…

Not sure you can compare them so directly. $800 is an unobtainable sum (?) for 1 billion Chinese/Indians. I'd also wonder about the difference in quality between UC Berkeley and a lot of those colleges. They are probably very good but US colleges tend to dominate world rankings (partially why everyone goes to them). If outsiders are willing to spend money in your schools, what happens to prices? I'm also unsure about…

Savings is used because looking at per capita income is a disingenuous metric.

Since making 10 times more than someone doesn't get you very far if you live in a place that's 20 times more expensive, savings rate was used as a rough proxy for "how much can an average person set aside for this considering all other factors".

You could certainly factor in GINI coefficients and quintile distributions for a more accurate analysis, but I don't think it will change the fundamental nature of the results:

The capital a parent earmarks for their child's college education takes more time to accumulate and is more quickly exhausted in the United States than in many other countries. This means that the United States parents may be less able to afford a secondary program for their child in the United States than their counterparts abroad who didn't have to bare the same initial cost burdens.

Re: The Disappearing American Grad Student

#30

Post by ironchef253 »

A few things:

Grad students from foreign countries are not crippled with debt. They get affordable educations and can afford to be in school longer in America. Comparable American students have been consumed by debt and must get real jobs to pay it off.

If undergrads were paying $7K / year for those degrees instead of $50k, things would be very different.

Second, universities who are rich from plundering their undergrads by way of massive administrative overhead resulting in skyrocketing loans...grad students are a source of labor for the schools at low cost.

By importing foreign students who are desperate and cheap, these universities are able to continue adding administrative bloat while exploiting foreign workers for the research tasks they once gave to their American contemporaries.

You want American grad students? Reform the loan situation, stop allowing universities to have their cake and eat it too. If they charge astronomical fees, they shouldn’t get to outsource that work to foreign students and then whine about not having more Americans.

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