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Psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression: fMRI-measured brain mechanisms [pdf]

nature.com

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Re: Psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression: fMRI-measured brain mechanisms [pdf]

#21

Post by SomeStupidPoint »

DigitalJack wrote: post #18
evincarofautumn wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would assume so, that it’d be akin to a strong one-shot antidepressant. Psilocybin is quickly metabolised to psilocin, which binds to serotonin receptors. It might be more of a risk for a bad trip, though, unless you have good dream control. Also, you’d definitely need to be rendered unconscious, haha—I can’t imagine trying to sleep naturally on mushrooms, although when I take them I always have the most beautifull…

Propofol would do the trick (in a clinical setting).

Putting someone under while on drugs that typically render it hard to sleep without disrupting the drugs seems considerably harder and riskier than keeping the trip a safe experience by having experienced psychiatrists and antipsychs on hand.

Re: Psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression: fMRI-measured brain mechanisms [pdf]

#22

Post by md224 »

trgv wrote: post #10

Assuming that psilocybin is effective at treating depression, I find myself wondering whether actual conscious experience (that is, being high) is an essential part of its effectiveness or not. To put this another way, imagine someone takes whatever dose of psilocybin and then is rendered unconsciousness until the perceptual effects wear off. Will there be any difference in its effectiveness as a treatment for depres…

Great question. Would love to see controlled studies on this, though the anaesthetic drug would be a confounding factor.

That makes me wonder: what if we gave people psilocybin and knocked them out with ketamine until the effects subsided? Hmm...

Re: Psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression: fMRI-measured brain mechanisms [pdf]

#23

Post by adammunich »

Anecdotally, I've seen psilocybin to be an excellent assistant, but not treatment per say, for depression. It can temporarily free people from negative thought patterns; but lasting change only comes from persistent self-reflection and actualization.

Re: Psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression: fMRI-measured brain mechanisms [pdf]

#24

Post by pizza »

discordance wrote: post #11
DenisM wrote: post #2

From the abstract: [...] Quality pre and post treatment fMRI data were collected from 16 of 19 patients. Decreased depressive symptoms were observed in all 19 patients at 1-week post-treatment and 47% met criteria for response at 5 weeks. [...]

N=19 is a very small sample size. I would be careful forming opinions based on this study.

even if it were e.g. sixteen or seventeen, for all of them to report lessened depression a week after is a fairly strong finding, at least enough to merit someone else attempting to reproduce the research. present depression medication barely works better than placebo

Re: Psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression: fMRI-measured brain mechanisms [pdf]

#25

Post by uoaei »

md224 wrote: post #22
trgv wrote: post #10

Assuming that psilocybin is effective at treating depression, I find myself wondering whether actual conscious experience (that is, being high) is an essential part of its effectiveness or not. To put this another way, imagine someone takes whatever dose of psilocybin and then is rendered unconsciousness until the perceptual effects wear off. Will there be any difference in its effectiveness as a treatment for depres…

Great question. Would love to see controlled studies on this, though the anaesthetic drug would be a confounding factor. That makes me wonder: what if we gave people psilocybin and knocked them out with ketamine until the effects subsided? Hmm...

I'm not sure if your question was tongue-in-cheek, but a k-hole (high ketamine dose) is also considered by some to be a psychedelic experience. It was (is?) common in the rave culture to do exactly what you describe.

Re: Psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression: fMRI-measured brain mechanisms [pdf]

#26

Post by uoaei »

adammunich wrote: post #23

Anecdotally, I've seen psilocybin to be an excellent assistant, but not treatment per say, for depression. It can temporarily free people from negative thought patterns; but lasting change only comes from persistent self-reflection and actualization.

Anecdotally, this is precisely my experience. It'll start the engine, but you have to navigate the course.

Re: Psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression: fMRI-measured brain mechanisms [pdf]

#27

Post by xzel »

pizza wrote: post #24
discordance wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

N=19 is a very small sample size. I would be careful forming opinions based on this study.

even if it were e.g. sixteen or seventeen, for all of them to report lessened depression a week after is a fairly strong finding, at least enough to merit someone else attempting to reproduce the research. present depression medication barely works better than placebo

Yes. I think if you put you and your parent comment together it forms a good synthesis of how to approach the results of this study.

Re: Psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression: fMRI-measured brain mechanisms [pdf]

#28

Post by WalterSear »

sdfin wrote: post #12
ComputerGuru wrote: post #4

Before self-medicating based on this combined with a self-diagnosis, consider that LSD and psilocybin have a nasty tendency of triggering latent psychological conditions if not taken in the appropriate dosage and in a controlled environment. [ref: http://www.nationaldrugstrategy.gov.au/internet/drugstrategy... ]

Is there proof that they have a tendency of triggering "latent" conditions, instead of generating the conditions? How can it be demonstated that conditions were latent before the use? Could it also be the case that people with potential mental illnesses is more likely to try drugs? Therefore being a correlational relationship instead of a causal one?

Lifetime prevalence remains the same.

Re: Psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression: fMRI-measured brain mechanisms [pdf]

#29

Post by WalterSear »

trgv wrote: post #10

Assuming that psilocybin is effective at treating depression, I find myself wondering whether actual conscious experience (that is, being high) is an essential part of its effectiveness or not. To put this another way, imagine someone takes whatever dose of psilocybin and then is rendered unconsciousness until the perceptual effects wear off. Will there be any difference in its effectiveness as a treatment for depres…

The effects of subthreshold doses of psilocybine would suggest that it's a cause of the drug, rather than the experience.

Re: Psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression: fMRI-measured brain mechanisms [pdf]

#30

Post by CardenB »

cheshire_cat wrote: post #9
ComputerGuru wrote: post #4

Before self-medicating based on this combined with a self-diagnosis, consider that LSD and psilocybin have a nasty tendency of triggering latent psychological conditions if not taken in the appropriate dosage and in a controlled environment. [ref: http://www.nationaldrugstrategy.gov.au/internet/drugstrategy... ]

I'd definitely advise anyone thinking about this to do their research but the risk doesn't seem to be as large as often suggested. There was a large US study that showed no correlation between lifetime psychedelic use and mental health problems. "[...] lifetime use of LSD, psilocybin, mescaline, or peyote, or past year use of LSD, was not associated with a higher rate of mental health problems." https://www.nature.co…

“Life time use” and “one time use triggering latent psychological conditions” are very different. Of course those who use over a long period of time aren’t showing adverse conditions. The ones who were triggered stayed away.
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