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The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

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Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#21

Post by holydude »

CorvusCrypto wrote: post #8

While I don't feel that there is risk of brain drain because of the reasons listed in the article, I do believe there is that risk. To be honest, even though many European countries don't pay as much as the US for the same job, I found much more comfort around the ideas pushed in those countries. The culture I found in Sweden for instance is one that is much better for the employees than the fast-paced top-gun style…

I found this to be pretty much a very biased subjective analogy. I am a european so I hope my "anti-european-rant" will be better accepted but lets see...

Europeans often have this illusion of a working social democracy compared to the US suggesting their by default offered benefits to be superior to the offers from the US. That's not the case. In a lot of middle-income-class positions you get most of the things you described as perks. Health care support check. Additional vac days check. Plus a much bigger paycheck.

Surely I can agree with treating the workers well and in my book this equals with not exploiting them (so no excessive overtimes, phone calls, onduties etc). But this is not a universal thing in Europe you cannot really generalize this and a lot of the EU companies can be very exploitative even if it's ILLEGAL.

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#23

Post by SubiculumCode »

ayh wrote: post #13

Academic positions are different than getting a job. The US will always be the beacon of innovation in the world. These are just doom and gloom clickbait articles.

If I can't get a research position in the States, but can in Europe, that is a problem.

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#24

Post by oh_sigh »

wightnoise wrote: post #5
monksy wrote: post #2

What is the point of this article? They've claimed that the person in the article is going back home because he received no teaching offers. That's standard practice for foreign individuals on a visa in the US. You have to be doing something to stay here. We're not going to let you live here just because you felt like you wanted to. --- Other than the politicking going on in the article: "OMG TRUMP IS SO BAD AMIRITE?…

To me it's less about visas and more about jobs. Why aren't their more research jobs? Why isn't the govt doing more to bolster research and create opportunity for talented minds?

Perhaps the right value proposition hasn't been made. It the ones that have been made have been made with poor arguments. "Research" in itself is neither inherently good not bad...just asking for more of it doesn't make sense...just like asking for more water doesn't make sense unless you know the context is you're dying of thirst and not pumping out your flooded basement.

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#25

Post by socalnate1 »

ayh wrote: post #13

Academic positions are different than getting a job. The US will always be the beacon of innovation in the world. These are just doom and gloom clickbait articles.

"The US will always be the beacon of innovation in the world."

This is nonsense. Just ask Rome, China and every other country that had it's turn at the top of the heap. We can argue about how and when this will change, but the only thing we know for certain is that it will.

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#26

Post by SubiculumCode »

3nki wrote: post #15

risking? it's been happing for years already. both in the "drain" sense, those leaving the US, and with fewer "brains" coming to the US from other places. also, with the decline in US academics, fewer are being created in the US to begin with. altogether, three different factors making a "brain drain".

There are fewer permanent positions being created,not fewer academics. Hence the post-doc crisis. The risk is that a paying country might win a big portion of US born post docs ifthe situatio doesn't change.

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#27

Post by SubiculumCode »

9t3h4r3o5w1a4w2 wrote: post #18
robotresearcher wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canada is getting some great talent right now. Americans, Brits, and people who would have gone to the US or UK are coming here. If we can keep them here, this will be a big boost for Canada long term.

Canada doesn't pay half as well as US when it comes to research in STEM. Every country has great talent right now, except US has the money.

If there was money then why are there not enough research positions open?

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#28

Post by stevenwoo »

SubiculumCode wrote: post #23
ayh wrote: post #13

Academic positions are different than getting a job. The US will always be the beacon of innovation in the world. These are just doom and gloom clickbait articles.

If I can't get a research position in the States, but can in Europe, that is a problem.

How does the job market for research positions and potential employee pool in the States versus Europe compare?

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#29

Post by sikim »

CorvusCrypto wrote: post #8

While I don't feel that there is risk of brain drain because of the reasons listed in the article, I do believe there is that risk. To be honest, even though many European countries don't pay as much as the US for the same job, I found much more comfort around the ideas pushed in those countries. The culture I found in Sweden for instance is one that is much better for the employees than the fast-paced top-gun style…

Problems you mentioned are not unheard of from my personal experience but it's highly dependent on which company or industry. Most of my peers who work in the software industry never had a problem of getting vacation time of few weeks and never work more than 8 hours per day. Of course there's a few times during the year where working more hours are encouraged (e.g. before release/deadline), but even then it's pretty rare. A lot of my friends from foreign countries will not hesitate to come to U.S. to work if they can resolve their visa situation. Also, this article mostly addresses academic jobs which is a totally different story from typical corp jobs.

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#30

Post by ptero »

wightnoise wrote: post #5
monksy wrote: post #2

What is the point of this article? They've claimed that the person in the article is going back home because he received no teaching offers. That's standard practice for foreign individuals on a visa in the US. You have to be doing something to stay here. We're not going to let you live here just because you felt like you wanted to. --- Other than the politicking going on in the article: "OMG TRUMP IS SO BAD AMIRITE?…

To me it's less about visas and more about jobs. Why aren't their more research jobs? Why isn't the govt doing more to bolster research and create opportunity for talented minds?

Government funding for research is important, especially for the pure science, but government should not blindly increase funding because some people are not finding academic jobs.

With the (IMO pretty broken) tenure system in the US, research-track academic jobs can be very lucrative and with many researchers un-fireable regardless of what they do academically makes research both more expensive (folks goofing off) and less valuable (sharp researchers cannot find positions) for the society that it can be. I think we need to tune the system before we talk about more funding as a solution

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