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Think You're Operating on Free Will? Think Again

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Re: Think You're Operating on Free Will? Think Again

#21

Post by parallax7d »

I would argue that for practical purposes, free will should be redefined as the ability to face a choice, and the capability to choose. Our reasoning is irrelevant, the predetermined interactions of our particles is irrelevant.

The interactions of all atoms follow physical laws. Yes, in this regard the entire future is as set in stone as the past. The whole universe is like a burned CD playing until it ends.

Free will, for practical purposes is a higher level concept, that exists as a mental shortcut/concept in our brains to deal with what to eat for lunch, irregardless of the underlying atomic interactions which run this simulation we call life.

Re: Think You're Operating on Free Will? Think Again

#22

Post by joshkaufman »

Here's a re-framing of "free will" that I find very useful - it's more like "free won't." The technical term is Inhibition. Our physical and mental processes may make us inclined to act in a certain way, but we have a limited ability to inhibit that initial response long enough to do something different by using willpower.

Think of a lion in the brush, ready to pounce on an unsuspecting antelope. The lion wants to pounce, but inhibits the response for a little while, waiting for the antelope to come a little closer.

Since willpower is depleted with use (a process called Ego Depletion), inhibition is a very limited power - it's difficult, requires a lot of energy, and can't be maintained indefinitely. Our natural inclinations and environment are extremely powerful forces, and we can't hold out for long.

That's why, if you're experiencing some form of temptation (wanting to do what you know you shouldn't), it's better to inhibit and remove yourself from the situation as quickly as possible vs. rely on your "free will" to save you. Otherwise, you'll progressively find it more and more difficult to resist until you act.

I find this definition very useful because it maintains human agency (the ability to choose your behavior), while respecting the undeniable power that environment and circumstances have on our behavior.

Re: Think You're Operating on Free Will? Think Again

#23

Post by aplusbi »

I believe very strongly that free will is tied to the existence of randomness. Without randomness there can be no free will.

From the little I've read it appears that true randomness does exist, in that there are experiments where all causally relevant variables are controlled and yet the outcome is still uncertain.

I'm not convinced that there is true randomness in the universe however, and I guess that means I subscribe to some sort of hidden variable theory with regards to the aforementioned experiments.

Re: Think You're Operating on Free Will? Think Again

#24

Post by nlh »

I've noticed a similar phenomenon in certain business situations: Ever worked at a tradeshow booth or done product demos? One thing you'll surely notice is that over the course of interacting with hundreds (or thousands) of people, strong patterns will emerge. Different people will say the _exact_ same thing in certain situations, and they'll all think they're being super funny or super original and clearly the first person to think of that.

We may have "free will" in the conscious sense, but our brains are still, for the most part, wired the same way, and what we think is an original or free-response is likely part of a very common, very non-original pattern.

Re: Think You're Operating on Free Will? Think Again

#25

Post by jokermatt999 »

joshkaufman wrote: post #22

Here's a re-framing of "free will" that I find very useful - it's more like "free won't." The technical term is Inhibition. Our physical and mental processes may make us inclined to act in a certain way, but we have a limited ability to inhibit that initial response long enough to do something different by using willpower. Think of a lion in the brush, ready to pounce on an unsuspecting antelope. The lion wants to po…

Couldn't you still be predisposed to go against your typical behavior in that instant?

Re: Think You're Operating on Free Will? Think Again

#26

Post by qubit »

I honestly don't understand how anyone can question that we lack free will unless one believes in a soul or some other kind of "magic". If all of our actions are governed by our brains, and our brains are simply a collection of particles obeying the laws of physics, where is the room for free will?

Re: Think You're Operating on Free Will? Think Again

#27

Post by dasil003 »

dkimball wrote: post #7
msluyter wrote: post #2

I've long believed that free will is illusory. Empirical evidence includes studies that suggest that we may make decisions before we're actually aware of them (See Benjamin Libet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Libet ) Your conscious mind is like a 6 year in the back seat with the toy steering wheel, pretending he's driving and making up stories about where he's taking us. Despite that, I can't actually live m…

I looked at this article, but I don't think the experiment proves as much as Libet claims it does. Neither he nor subsequent researchers seem to have gone beyond toy problems (what EEG activity appears in someone writing or programming?). Also, I find it hard to believe that free will "lives" in one or another part of the brain; neither determinism nor randomness is freedom, and a physical "organ of free will" would…

We get angry when theologians try to overstep their bounds into science, so we should also get angry when scientists overstep their bounds into philosophy with all kinds of hamfisted assumptions.

I mean just because an assumption is necessary and reasonable for exploring the mechanics of the universe does not mean you can simply extrapolate to something as mysterious as the nature of consciousness and free will.

Re: Think You're Operating on Free Will? Think Again

#28

Post by rokhayakebe »

marbletiles wrote: post #5
msluyter wrote: post #2

I've long believed that free will is illusory. Empirical evidence includes studies that suggest that we may make decisions before we're actually aware of them (See Benjamin Libet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Libet ) Your conscious mind is like a 6 year in the back seat with the toy steering wheel, pretending he's driving and making up stories about where he's taking us. Despite that, I can't actually live m…

There is a fascinating book by Julian Jaynes called The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind that goes even deeper into this area. Basically, he says, our two minds were previously split and "you" would "hear" your other mind issuing instructions about what to do. (Much like Snow Crash and the nam-shubs of Enki). Over time the two merged, and we ended up with a single stream of consciousness…

Interesting right ear findings:

http://www.google.com/search?q=spoken++right+ear.

Re: Think You're Operating on Free Will? Think Again

#29

Post by kranner »

nlh wrote: post #24

I've noticed a similar phenomenon in certain business situations: Ever worked at a tradeshow booth or done product demos? One thing you'll surely notice is that over the course of interacting with hundreds (or thousands) of people, strong patterns will emerge. Different people will say the _exact_ same thing in certain situations, and they'll all think they're being super funny or super original and clearly the first…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia

I believe it is better to form a hypothesis about a pattern first and then go about trying to prove or disprove it, even if empirically, rather than to observe an apparent pattern and then consider the same observation as proof that it is real.

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