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South Korea’s deployment of THAAD upsets China, seen as espionage tool

arstechnica.com

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Re: South Korea’s deployment of THAAD upsets China, seen as espionage tool

#21

Post by germinalphrase »

disconnected wrote: post #18
tomohawk wrote: post #2

China has only themselves to blame. They've let their little client state (North Korea) get out of control to the point where they have nukes and have made threats of using them. If they didn't want a nuclear arms race amongst their neighbors, they should have taken appropriate action years ago.

The last time the USA tried to build a ballistic missile defence system, Ukraine got invaded and split into two (if not officially, at least practically). Turns out that when big powerful countries start feeling a bit squeezed, they create buffer zones. By invading a neighbour. Not trying to make up excuses for any of the parties involved here. Just pointing out that China likely won't sit on its ass as this happens.…

It is speculated that this is why his step-brother, Kim Jong-Nam, was recently assassinated. It helps solidify Kim Jong Un's leadership in NK. Without a ready replacement, this probably escalates the situation further.

Re: South Korea’s deployment of THAAD upsets China, seen as espionage tool

#22

Post by yorwba »

paradite wrote: post #20
dba7dba wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess you didn't see my comment below that China deployed long range radar system to monitor the sky of South Korea and Japan like 10 years ago? Or are you just ignoring that? US military is present in South Korea and Japan because of N. Korea and China, not anybody else. You don't see such US military presence in NZ or Australia.

You misunderstood my point. I have nothing against deploying defense structures among allies or in one's own territory. I was referring to the "possible actions" that could have been taken against NK by China earlier, proposed by the parent comment.

The possible actions would be to stop propping them up. Not providing humanitarian aid in the resulting collapse would be pretty unethical, but it's in China's self interest anyway. They don't want lots of refugees in their border region.

Re: South Korea’s deployment of THAAD upsets China, seen as espionage tool

#23

Post by paradite »

mikeash wrote: post #19
paradite wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make it sound like it is perfectly ethical and reasonable to interfere with another sovereign state's defense systems unilaterally. Edit: I think I have read much into the parent comment and made a strawman fallacy here.

How does that comment in any way imply that it's ethical or reasonable to interfere with another state's defense systems?

> "They've let their little client state (North Korea) get out of control ... they have nukes ... they should have taken appropriate action years ago."

The comment suggests taking actions against possible nuclear development, while China's position has always been "no nuclear on Korean peninsula". We know that the statement or stand had no real effects. So the only other possible alternative would be to interfere directly to stop them from developing their defense systems. So I thought the parent comment is suggesting that.

I phrased it in such a way to draw parallel with US military actions recently to show how that is equally undesirable.

Re: South Korea’s deployment of THAAD upsets China, seen as espionage tool

#24

Post by hackuser »

Kocrachon wrote: post #7
plandis wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really think you're oversimplifying the situation from the Chinese perspective.

How is it over-simplified? China is letting this happen because of a lot of the profits they make, and russia make, off of the dictatorship that there is. http://www.cnn.com/2011/12/15/world/asia/north-korean-labor-... Russia gets slaves from them, thats why Russia protects them. China both profits from them, but also doesn't want to deal with Refugees. So they make the selfish act of letting the child run crazy.

> China is letting this happen because of a lot of the profits they make ...

How do you know the Chinese leadership's strategic thinking about NK? Also, that hypothesis doesn't explain the massive resources, including blood, they spent defending NK.

I don't think NK's 25 million citizen labor pool, likely operating at extremely low-productivity levels and less than 1/40th of China's, makes much economic impact. Nor does China want competition from cheap labor.

Re: South Korea’s deployment of THAAD upsets China, seen as espionage tool

#25

Post by fra »

paradite wrote: post #15
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, NK has been at times dependent on aid from China, so it doesn't seem too unreasonable to ask China to try to restrain NK's aggressiveness. On the other hand, your point would apply pretty well to China's response to South Korea's defense systems. (It's not just that China's calling it espionage; the article mentions serious hacking attacks.)

Yes, you have a point. But I would argue that while intelligence operations are commonplace practices of states, direct military actions require more thoughts and it is not something Chinese government would carry out without proper justification. Basically on this matter, the Chinese government has taken a similar approach as the previous US administration, which is to not take actions. On hindsight of course it is…

No, the chinese government is not adopting the same stance as previous US admins.

The US have an embargo against North Korea, whereas the chinese are selling them materials to build their missiles with.

They could start by putting political pressure on them, levying trade sanctions and publicly denouncing their nuclear program.

Re: South Korea’s deployment of THAAD upsets China, seen as espionage tool

#26

Post by mikeash »

paradite wrote: post #23
mikeash wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does that comment in any way imply that it's ethical or reasonable to interfere with another state's defense systems?

> "They've let their little client state (North Korea) get out of control ... they have nukes ... they should have taken appropriate action years ago." The comment suggests taking actions against possible nuclear development, while China's position has always been "no nuclear on Korean peninsula". We know that the statement or stand had no real effects. So the only other possible alternative would be to interfere dir…

China has been interfering in North Korea since the establishment of the country. If they stopped now, the place would fall apart. So all that comment is really advocating for is a minor change in how they interfere. Noninterference would likely result in rapid collapse and war.

Re: South Korea’s deployment of THAAD upsets China, seen as espionage tool

#27

Post by freerobots »

dba7dba wrote: post #6
plandis wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really think you're oversimplifying the situation from the Chinese perspective.

What is the Chinese perspective?

That the US is taking advantage of the NK situation to "ring China".

I consider NK to be a serious threat to the US and her allies but I think the Chinese do not consider NK to be a serious threat to the Chinese.

Imagine if Cuba decided to start allowing Chinese anti-missile defense systems at the US' doorstep because we weren't willing to deal with our ally Mexico regarding a conflict that didn't threat us.

Re: South Korea’s deployment of THAAD upsets China, seen as espionage tool

#28

Post by wyager »

tomohawk wrote: post #8
plandis wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really think you're oversimplifying the situation from the Chinese perspective.

How so? China is their largest trading partner and NK is building the missiles using Chinese parts. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/kim-j...

NK shares a border with China and obviously can't trade with SK. It'd be miraculous if China wasn't their largest trading partner.

I suspect almost all countries that don't get military hardware from the US or Russia build their missiles with Chinese parts.

Re: South Korea’s deployment of THAAD upsets China, seen as espionage tool

#29

Post by Dagwoodie »

hackuser wrote: post #24
Kocrachon wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it over-simplified? China is letting this happen because of a lot of the profits they make, and russia make, off of the dictatorship that there is. http://www.cnn.com/2011/12/15/world/asia/north-korean-labor-... Russia gets slaves from them, thats why Russia protects them. China both profits from them, but also doesn't want to deal with Refugees. So they make the selfish act of letting the child run crazy.

> China is letting this happen because of a lot of the profits they make ... How do you know the Chinese leadership's strategic thinking about NK? Also, that hypothesis doesn't explain the massive resources, including blood, they spent defending NK. I don't think NK's 25 million citizen labor pool, likely operating at extremely low-productivity levels and less than 1/40th of China's, makes much economic impact. Nor d…

NK Has strategic value to China more than anything I believe. Although, maybe China just doesn't know what to do with North Korea and therefore just tries to get along with them as best they can, or they are actually happy to have NK on a leash and remain friendly enough to keep NK from biting them.

Re: South Korea’s deployment of THAAD upsets China, seen as espionage tool

#30

Post by mikeash »

freerobots wrote: post #27
dba7dba wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the Chinese perspective?

That the US is taking advantage of the NK situation to "ring China". I consider NK to be a serious threat to the US and her allies but I think the Chinese do not consider NK to be a serious threat to the Chinese. Imagine if Cuba decided to start allowing Chinese anti-missile defense systems at the US' doorstep because we weren't willing to deal with our ally Mexico regarding a conflict that didn't threat us.

I have a hard time seeing why we in the US should care in the least about a missile defense system in Cuba.
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