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Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

theguardian.com

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Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#21

Post by cocktailpeanuts »

Logic 101: (A => B) != (B => A)

I don't know when it became OK to use these logical fallacies online to support propaganda.

I also don't know at which point even the people with above average intelligence (AND definitely know about what a logical fallacy is) decided that they will pretend it suddenly doesn't exist.

Lastly, I don't know why the HN readers who I'm sure know ALL about all this AND even more end up going all groundhog day and have the same battle every time this type of article comes up.

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#22

Post by mwfunk »

One of my pet peeves is when someone takes issue with an oversimplification of something, but instead of dealing with the oversimplification, they keep the same level of oversimplification but assume that the opposite view must be true.

Just because something's not 100% true doesn't mean it's 0% true. In this case, a more appropriate level of granularity would be: "if you work hard, you are more likely to be successful than if you don't work hard." That kind of nuance doesn't really resonate with children though, which is why we don't tell them that.

Complaining that it's all a big lie is akin to someone growing up, realizing that there is no Santa living in the North Pole, and concluding that the North Pole must also be a lie.

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#23

Post by mcbruiser3 »

011235813213455 wrote: post #17
mindcrime wrote: post #2

More straw-man crap trying to pitch the ridiculous idea that hard work doesn't matter at all. OK, sure, you can argue that you're more likely to reach the very highest echelons of society if you are lucky enough to be born rich, etc. But: a. "more likely" doesn't mean it isn't possible to achieve if you aren't "born right" and perhaps more to the point: b. "success" is measured on a continuum; it's not a binary propo…

Nowhere in that article does he say that hard work doesn't matter at all. >What I have learned in this short period of time is that the pervasive narrative of “if you work hard you will get on” is a complete myth. It’s not true and we need stop saying it. This is because “working hard, and doing the right thing” barely gets you to the starting line. Furthermore, it means something completely different depending on to…

he's a terrible writer then.

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#24

Post by phil21 »

sp332 wrote: post #6
FreedomToCreate wrote: post #4

There are two really big problems with this outlook. First if everyone achieves a high level education, the competition for high skilled jobs also goes up, making the higher education mean less and requiring further education to beat the crowd. This is something millennials are experiencing right now. Second, if employers take more risk and hire more people from underprivileged backgrounds, it just means that someone…

The job market isn't static like that. If there are lots of highly educated people, there will be new jobs created to take advantage of their skills. There might be more competition or there might not be, and it's definitely not a linear correlation.

The more I think on this topic, the more I think this statement is incorrect.

Or rather it's correct, but irrelevantly so. Sure new markets will be created if your worker pool is made up highly motivated and college educated individuals. But it won't matter for that first generation - economies simply don't shift that quickly.

It's not a linear correlation, but it's a lot more linear than economic theorists would lead you to believe. In human working-age timescales, it may as well be linear.

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#25

Post by ashwinaj »

I somewhat agree with the premise, but then I read "going home to a bedroom which you share with many other siblings" Yes, surely sharing a room with your brother and sister hampers your chances of success (sarcasm). Did he mean a cramped room? Even so, I don't agree.

There is no guarantee for anything in life, it's an absolute certainty that you will get nothing without some semblence of hard work.

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#26

Post by mcbruiser3 »

chronic940 wrote: post #11
maxxxxx wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"As the old saying goes: "It is better to shoot for the stars and miss than aim at the gutter and hit it". Or another take on it: "Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars." " These are fine. However, there is also the belief that all people who have reached the stars have worked hard or that people who haven't reached stars just haven't worked enough. These are wrong. Success is a combinatio…

So do you propose we give free scholarships, jobs, and tax breaks to those who end up unlucky? I was unlucky and had medical problems in college. I deserve some relief. But I'm also a co-founder of a decent startup. Am I lucky or unlucky?

my god, you can't live life and expect nothing bad to ever happen to you. stuff happens, and if you want to be successful you'll deal with it.

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#27

Post by 011235813213455 »

chippy wrote: post #3

> What I have learned in this short period of time is that the pervasive narrative of “if you work hard you will get on” is a complete myth. It’s not true and we need stop saying it. This is because “working hard, and doing the right thing” barely gets you to the starting line The author misses the point. It's true that only saying “if you work hard you will get on” is not enough. But it's only half the picture - wor…

I suggest you read the end of that paragraph, because he ends it by saying essentially what you said he missed.

> So much more is required.

While he does not explicitly state what is required, he is obviously saying that we need to stop using that statement alone.

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#28

Post by alasdair_ »

wavefunction wrote: post #13
maxxxxx wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"As the old saying goes: "It is better to shoot for the stars and miss than aim at the gutter and hit it". Or another take on it: "Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars." " These are fine. However, there is also the belief that all people who have reached the stars have worked hard or that people who haven't reached stars just haven't worked enough. These are wrong. Success is a combinatio…

"Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars." Funnily enough the moon is much closer than the stars. ;) I think success is a matter of preparation, opportunity/luck and 'hard work' in the form of dedication when the opportunity presents itself.

>>"Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars." >Funnily enough the moon is much closer than the stars. ;)

Sure but if you MISS the moon, you'll be stuck heading towards the stars until you run of of oxygen and die.

That's the point of this saying, right? ...

Re: Telling children 'hard work gets you to the top' is simply a lie

#30

Post by TheAdamAndChe »

sp332 wrote: post #6
FreedomToCreate wrote: post #4

There are two really big problems with this outlook. First if everyone achieves a high level education, the competition for high skilled jobs also goes up, making the higher education mean less and requiring further education to beat the crowd. This is something millennials are experiencing right now. Second, if employers take more risk and hire more people from underprivileged backgrounds, it just means that someone…

The job market isn't static like that. If there are lots of highly educated people, there will be new jobs created to take advantage of their skills. There might be more competition or there might not be, and it's definitely not a linear correlation.

There is a lot more to entrepreneurship than a high education level. Young people are more educated than ever, yet small business creation is lower than ever[1]. A business requires startup capital, which is tough to gain when you must start your career in $40k-$100k in debt. The salaries of recent grads have been lower, too. Cost of living, especially in housing and medical expenses, is going up every year. With dwindling social stability and a hobbled ability to save, the only ones who can safely risk starting a business nowadays are those who already have capital.

[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-small-business/wp/201...

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