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Massive permafrost thaw documented in Canada, portending huge carbon release

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Re: Massive permafrost thaw documented in Canada, portending huge carbon release

#21
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last I heard, scientists still feel that way, but they've gotten burned-out on trying to explain to the public exactly how doomed we actually are.

Yes, we still feel that way. It's not like we can do anything though.

Why not? Even assuming that the runaway is unstoppable, that's a fixed quantity. The final outcome will be

    runaway CO2 + everyone else's CO2 + our CO2
and we've got control over one of these terms.

Re: Massive permafrost thaw documented in Canada, portending huge carbon release

#22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the common sentiment is 'the best time to take action was 40 years ago. The absolute limit was 20 years ago. There's no stopping it now, even if we reduce our emissions to zero . The latent emissions in the atmosphere will already bone us. I'm glad I live in the Netherlands. We're a very rich country, and we have been battling water for more than a thousand years as a people. Places like Bangladesh will be comp…

I don't know if you are trolling, but I will bite. You know the Netherlands will be literally underwater within this century, don't you?

We've been largely winning against the sea since 1500, and that's with windmills and wheelbarrels of mud. Look up the Afsluitdijk. Or the Deltawerken. Our combined 'water defense works' are considered one of the modern wonders of the world. The Dutch will never surrender to the sea. Even if the rest of the globe will experience some catastrophic flood, the Dutch will figure out how to stave it off.

Re: Massive permafrost thaw documented in Canada, portending huge carbon release

#23
post #2

I remember reading (probably about 2 decades ago) that if we were to loose the permafrost the resulting release of CO2 would lead to runaway warming. I haven't read that concern recently, so I'm hopeful that scientists no longer feel that way, but it is alarming to see this day has come.

[deleted]

Re: Massive permafrost thaw documented in Canada, portending huge carbon release

#24
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue that it's happening now. On February 17, it was 81F in my back porch in Albany, NY. That is an all time record. Right now, at 6PM EST, its 64F. It hasn't been below 20 in a week. Our average high is about 28F. We've had fewer snow events in the last 5 years than we had in any year in the 90s. The climate has already changed.

The parent specifically asked about "the runaway," not merely climate change. The term "runaway" refers to a feedback effect, so that climate change breeds more climate change rather than relying on our carbon emissions to fuel it.

"Now" still seems like a very good answer. I doubt that if we stopped emissions today, we'd see any positive changes for decades, and that's if we're very very lucky.

Re: Massive permafrost thaw documented in Canada, portending huge carbon release

#25
post #15
post #2

I remember reading (probably about 2 decades ago) that if we were to loose the permafrost the resulting release of CO2 would lead to runaway warming. I haven't read that concern recently, so I'm hopeful that scientists no longer feel that way, but it is alarming to see this day has come.

> I haven't read that concern recently, so I'm hopeful that scientists no longer feel that way, but it is alarming to see this day has come. As others have said, this only became more proven. Even with a non-linearity at out-of-observation CO2 levels that causes temperatures to drop the resulting weather patterns will be... unpleasant.

Don't worry, the continuous state of conflict and social/political upheaval will be a handy distraction from all of that.

Re: Massive permafrost thaw documented in Canada, portending huge carbon release

#26
post #21
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, we still feel that way. It's not like we can do anything though.

Why not? Even assuming that the runaway is unstoppable, that's a fixed quantity. The final outcome will be runaway CO2 + everyone else's CO2 + our CO2 and we've got control over one of these terms.

which term do "we" have control of exactly? also... define "we"?

Speaking for myself, I live in a country in which my current elected leader claims that CO2-related climate change is a hoax perpetrated by the Chinese and who plans (essentially politically unopposed, at least for the next 2-4 years) to undo what little protection prior administrations have put into place to try to help.

This does not give me a feeling of having any control whatsoever over the situation, but I'd love to hear what you think the realistic options are.

Re: Massive permafrost thaw documented in Canada, portending huge carbon release

#27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the common sentiment is 'the best time to take action was 40 years ago. The absolute limit was 20 years ago. There's no stopping it now, even if we reduce our emissions to zero . The latent emissions in the atmosphere will already bone us. I'm glad I live in the Netherlands. We're a very rich country, and we have been battling water for more than a thousand years as a people. Places like Bangladesh will be comp…

I joke this is the real reason Elon Musk is digging tunnels and preparing to live in a Mars-like environment...

Why do you think that this is a joke?

Elon has stated in all seriousness that he personally puts global warming at above a 1% chance of being a species-threatening event for us, and that we need to become a multi-planetary species to reduce the odds of extinction.

He doesn't think that wiping out our species is a likely or even very probable. Just high enough that there is no better way that he can spend his time than trying to address and mitigate the problem.

Re: Massive permafrost thaw documented in Canada, portending huge carbon release

#28
As no one has mentioned it in the comments, the belief that this is concerning is related to the "Clathrate gun hypothesis"[1].

Essentially, low temperatures have allowed vast quantities of methane and carbon dioxide containing compounds to accumulate for millennia. If the temperatures rise above a critical threshold, a positive feedback loop would exist between temperatures and global warming.

Positive feedback loops are scary.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clathrate_gun_hypothesis

Re: Massive permafrost thaw documented in Canada, portending huge carbon release

#29

I'm curious how much this phenomenon might affect CO2 levels compared to the deforestation of the Amazon, which I have read in the past is the single most disastrous human action when it comes to climate. The Amazon forest is vast and produces a significant percentage of the world's oxygen. The balance we have seen the past few thousand years is being upset not only by industrial pollution but by depriving the world…

even the most inhospitable places on earth (even post global warming) are far far more hospitable than the best places on mars.

Re: Massive permafrost thaw documented in Canada, portending huge carbon release

#30
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, we still feel that way. It's not like we can do anything though.

How fast would the runaway happen?

I'm not sure I understand your question correctly. It is not a question of time but of system parameters.

I just dug through the literature to get this right. The only study I found that actually modelled the feedback of the rising temperature due to emitted greenhouse gases (CO2 and CH4 - methane) on the permafrost says that any model they ran with a climate sensitivity above 3°C (how the system reacts to a doubling of CO2 or equivalent in the atmosphere [1]) produced a runaway effect, that is, atmospheric CO2 content keeps rising even if anthropogenic emissions stop in 2013 (which, as you know, they didn't). The current state on climate sensitivity is 3°C +-1.5°C.

They estimated some parameters conservatively too. So it could be worse. Or better - there are still a lot of uncertainties.

- The way carbon is released into the atmosphere can happen in different ways, and that can lead to different ratios of carbon in the air and other reservoirs like water or soil in bound form, as well as different ratios of methane and CO2 (they have vastly different atmospheric lifetimes and warming potential, so this matters).

- The total amount of carbon stored in permafrost soils is unclear. Permafrost can be very thick and deep, and large areas are hard to access. edit: Estimations are that the reservoir holds about twice that of the current atmosphere. Some of that will definitely go into the ocean and biosphere, but it's still a lot.

- Permafrost has a range of interesting behaviour during the freeze-thaw cycle (if you're interested, check it out, the features it produces are really neat). It is unclear how they change with temperature differences, and it influences the melting and release of carbon.

- Other climate-related effects such as flooding, increased vegetation etc have an influence. How much? Hard to say.

- Once the permafrost starts melting, carbon is released with a time delay, which is also not clear.

.. and so on. Non-linear effects, effects highly dependent on topography, micro-climate, vegetation... very hard to model in a consistent way. So.. it might be wrong too. Let's hope so.

The new balanced state will need years to centuries to be reached too, since thawing takes time. There is permafrost beneath the northern oceans. How? It's still there from the last ice age.

A note on time: The numbers I found for increased temperature due to permafrost melting by 2100 are in the 0.1°C-0.7°C range [2]. So we're probably fine. The ones after us.. well. There are some other feedback mechanisms that still require research. It would be great if something there helped us.. or we are all horribly wrong. That would be brilliant.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_sensitivity

[2] http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/9/8/0850...

http://www.nature.com/ngeo/journal/v5/n10/full/ngeo1573.html

This one is behind a paywall. :(

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