A practical guide for learning meditation through the art of gaming • Hacker News Board

Re: A practical guide for learning meditation through the art of gaming

#21

Post by nickpsecurity » Sat, Dec 03, 2016, 12:02 AM UTC

gerbilly wrote: post #16

cJ0th wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What sets Meditative Joy apart from other forms of flow is that the flow-inducing activity takes place entirely within the mind itself, and the skill being applied is concentration, rather than concentration arising secondary to the focused application of other skills." I am really not sure this is true. Here is a quote from Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind: > If you are concentrated on your breathing you will forget your…

>So yes, you induce meditation by choosing (in your mind) to watch your breath but that's no different from choosing to play a game. It's not a coincidence that so many schools decided to teach focusing on the breath. Your breath is correlated strongly with both your metal state and physical state. Also your breath is always with you, and can be put under the control of your will, or become completely automatic. (New…

"Also your breath is always with you, and can be put under the control of your will, or become completely automatic. (New meditators often struggle with this"

This is the single, best reason to use it after how tied it is with unconscious mind. You can't loose your breath except for brief moments. ;)

Re: A practical guide for learning meditation through the art of gaming

#22

Post by fsiefken » Sat, Dec 03, 2016, 12:21 AM UTC

mixermf wrote: post #18

cJ0th wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What sets Meditative Joy apart from other forms of flow is that the flow-inducing activity takes place entirely within the mind itself, and the skill being applied is concentration, rather than concentration arising secondary to the focused application of other skills." I am really not sure this is true. Here is a quote from Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind: > If you are concentrated on your breathing you will forget your…

There is an important difference between meditating on a game and meditating on your breath: meditating on your breath is boring --- and that boredom is good for you. According to Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche "Boredom is part of the discipline of meditation practice" [1]. As for the relevance of arguing / debating: not everything is non dual (in a manner of speaking). In Tibetan Buddhism this is reflected in the Two Trut…

Thanks for your quote from Chogyam Trungpa, I am going through his lectures with a former student of his. Great stuff.

Re: A practical guide for learning meditation through the art of gaming

#23

Post by aaimnr » Sat, Dec 03, 2016, 12:34 AM UTC

freshhawk wrote: post #20

aaimnr wrote: post #12

The fact that meditative absorptions are a type of Flow experience (very unique one, see below), doesn't mean that any Flow state is meditation. These games may very well induce a flow state (as Flappy Birds can, if you're good at it), but it doesn't make it meditation. Here's a quote from Culadasa, a neurophysiologist and an adept meditator: "What sets both Meditative Joy and flow apart from ordinary Joy is that it…

I find they are nearly the opposite types of flow, at least if you are talking about mindfulness meditation. Even with more zen type mediation where you try to empty your mind, it's still very different from a game flow state. The entire point of concentrating on your breathing is that your breathing is always there and is boring !

> The entire point of concentrating on your breathing is that your breathing is always there

Once you reach some level of mindfulness, you start to notice that your breath is very seldom there. There are all kinds of distractions that your attention is moving to. You may not notice it and 'think' that you are watching the breath, while in the center of your attention is eg. an internal monologue or concept of the breath or mental image of the breath (how you imagine it).

> The entire point of concentrating on your breathing is that your breathing is always there and is boring!

Here you go. If there's boredom, there's no breath. If your attention is on the breath there's no boredom. Boredom is a specific mental object (state and story) and it's a distraction from the breath. 'Breath' is a concept and looking at a concept is boring indeed. If you look at the actual breath, however, you see something that's never the same, constantly changing stream of sensations, reality behind the concepts. It's always amazing, it's more interesting than anything you can ever see in ordinary closed, story-driven state of mind.

Re: A practical guide for learning meditation through the art of gaming

#24

Post by pixelperfect » Sat, Dec 03, 2016, 12:45 AM UTC

aaimnr wrote: post #12

The fact that meditative absorptions are a type of Flow experience (very unique one, see below), doesn't mean that any Flow state is meditation. These games may very well induce a flow state (as Flappy Birds can, if you're good at it), but it doesn't make it meditation. Here's a quote from Culadasa, a neurophysiologist and an adept meditator: "What sets both Meditative Joy and flow apart from ordinary Joy is that it…

Interesting to see a reference to Culadasa on HN. I discovered his site in 2013 and listened to almost his entire podcast archive. For more than a year I meditated 1+ hours every day, but ultimately I didn't make much progress according to the 10 stages model he has laid out. I ended up getting skeptical/discouraged and stopped meditating regularly. How about you?

Re: A practical guide for learning meditation through the art of gaming

#25

Post by DenisM » Sat, Dec 03, 2016, 1:36 AM UTC

pixelperfect wrote: post #24

aaimnr wrote: post #12

The fact that meditative absorptions are a type of Flow experience (very unique one, see below), doesn't mean that any Flow state is meditation. These games may very well induce a flow state (as Flappy Birds can, if you're good at it), but it doesn't make it meditation. Here's a quote from Culadasa, a neurophysiologist and an adept meditator: "What sets both Meditative Joy and flow apart from ordinary Joy is that it…

Interesting to see a reference to Culadasa on HN. I discovered his site in 2013 and listened to almost his entire podcast archive. For more than a year I meditated 1+ hours every day, but ultimately I didn't make much progress according to the 10 stages model he has laid out. I ended up getting skeptical/discouraged and stopped meditating regularly. How about you?

Try Vipassana. Spending 10 days in retreat essentially takes you to the low-Earth orbit. From there you can decay back to Earth by doing nothing, or make better use of your new position through sustained meditation that you already know how to do.

Having the patience to mediate for the entire year without results pretty much dooms you to success.

Re: A practical guide for learning meditation through the art of gaming

#26

Post by DenisM » Sat, Dec 03, 2016, 1:43 AM UTC

cJ0th wrote: post #14

aaimnr wrote: post #12

The fact that meditative absorptions are a type of Flow experience (very unique one, see below), doesn't mean that any Flow state is meditation. These games may very well induce a flow state (as Flappy Birds can, if you're good at it), but it doesn't make it meditation. Here's a quote from Culadasa, a neurophysiologist and an adept meditator: "What sets both Meditative Joy and flow apart from ordinary Joy is that it…

> What sets Meditative Joy apart from other forms of flow is that the flow-inducing activity takes place entirely within the mind itself, and the skill being applied is concentration, rather than concentration arising secondary to the focused application of other skills." I am really not sure this is true. Here is a quote from Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind: > If you are concentrated on your breathing you will forget your…

>that's no different from choosing to play a game

There's a dramatic difference - when playing a game you're reacting to the game. When meditating your entire goal is to not react.

The similarities are only in that in both cases you cease to react to your own internal state - the most harmful of all reactions because it forms self-reinforcing feedback loops.

Re: A practical guide for learning meditation through the art of gaming

#27

Post by freshhawk » Sat, Dec 03, 2016, 2:49 AM UTC

aaimnr wrote: post #23

freshhawk wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find they are nearly the opposite types of flow, at least if you are talking about mindfulness meditation. Even with more zen type mediation where you try to empty your mind, it's still very different from a game flow state. The entire point of concentrating on your breathing is that your breathing is always there and is boring !

> The entire point of concentrating on your breathing is that your breathing is always there Once you reach some level of mindfulness, you start to notice that your breath is very seldom there. There are all kinds of distractions that your attention is moving to. You may not notice it and 'think' that you are watching the breath, while in the center of your attention is eg. an internal monologue or concept of the bre…

I think we're trying to say the same thing, although you expressed it more expensively.

Concentrating on the breath is an excellent entry point to a set of much deeper and more interesting experiences.

A video game is not going to lead you to these, because it is too distracting/complex/engaging. The breath can. Boring was perhaps not a good way to express this, but it was simple, without the pull of these subtler sensations being noticeable there is no path forward.

This stream is exponentially less noticeable while doing something less boring, like gaming, to a beginner.

Perhaps "stimulating" is a better concept than "boring" to explain it?

Re: A practical guide for learning meditation through the art of gaming

#28

Post by freshhawk » Sat, Dec 03, 2016, 2:56 AM UTC

freshhawk wrote: post #27

aaimnr wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The entire point of concentrating on your breathing is that your breathing is always there Once you reach some level of mindfulness, you start to notice that your breath is very seldom there. There are all kinds of distractions that your attention is moving to. You may not notice it and 'think' that you are watching the breath, while in the center of your attention is eg. an internal monologue or concept of the bre…

I think we're trying to say the same thing, although you expressed it more expensively. Concentrating on the breath is an excellent entry point to a set of much deeper and more interesting experiences. A video game is not going to lead you to these, because it is too distracting/complex/engaging. The breath can. Boring was perhaps not a good way to express this, but it was simple, without the pull of these subtler se…

Also I meant that your breath is always there literally. No matter where your attention is, if you are alive you are breathing.

It is something available to all beginners at all times and works well as a place to refocus. And at that stage the main challenge is stopping constant mind wandering and narrativising.

Re: A practical guide for learning meditation through the art of gaming

#29

Post by catshirt » Sat, Dec 03, 2016, 3:01 AM UTC

aaimnr wrote: post #12

The fact that meditative absorptions are a type of Flow experience (very unique one, see below), doesn't mean that any Flow state is meditation. These games may very well induce a flow state (as Flappy Birds can, if you're good at it), but it doesn't make it meditation. Here's a quote from Culadasa, a neurophysiologist and an adept meditator: "What sets both Meditative Joy and flow apart from ordinary Joy is that it…

great comment, thanks for sharing. this might be the first insight into meditation that gave me an actual idea of what it attempts to accomplish.

Re: A practical guide for learning meditation through the art of gaming

#30

Post by cJ0th » Sat, Dec 03, 2016, 8:32 AM UTC

DenisM wrote: post #26

cJ0th wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What sets Meditative Joy apart from other forms of flow is that the flow-inducing activity takes place entirely within the mind itself, and the skill being applied is concentration, rather than concentration arising secondary to the focused application of other skills." I am really not sure this is true. Here is a quote from Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind: > If you are concentrated on your breathing you will forget your…

>that's no different from choosing to play a game There's a dramatic difference - when playing a game you're reacting to the game. When meditating your entire goal is to not react . The similarities are only in that in both cases you cease to react to your own internal state - the most harmful of all reactions because it forms self-reinforcing feedback loops.

> There's a dramatic difference - when playing a game you're reacting to the game. When meditating your entire goal is to not react.

My take is that "no reaction" is just another way of reacting.