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A practical guide for learning meditation through the art of gaming

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Re: A practical guide for learning meditation through the art of gaming

#11

Post by ashleypt »

hosh wrote: post #9
ashleypt wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah the fixed mindset has really crippled me in my life. I was one of those "gifted" kids (to be fair, I do have a pretty high IQ, but fixed mindset is bad for high-IQ individuals too) and I couldn't even stick with video games after awhile, always playing on the easiest difficulties. It's really taking a long time to re-build my attention span and work ethic (ie. from just fiddling around with a million little linu…

I had something similar. Martial arts and video games didn't quite switch it on for me. There were wishful thinking on my part when I practiced those. At some point, I learned to eat the suffering that comes with doing something difficult. It came down to that. There is no avoiding the suffering. What makes hard work "hard" is literally the suffering. Being able to be present -- being mindful -- to it is what makes i…

for me, yeah, meditation and exercise has helped quite a lot because they both directly reward and reinforce accepting struggle or challenge very shortly after doing it and the effect builds through persistence. I don't like to call it "pain" or "suffering" - I think "strain" or "tension" is a much much better to put it because you can strain to do something pleasant like when we squint to try to see something better, or when we stretch to loosen up our muscles. Describing it as pain or suffering isn't going to help anyone standing on the outside of learned-helplessness - for a long time I associated "hard work" with doing things just because you felt like you had to because of that mindset and because of public schooling/being told what to do as a kid and so I carried on that refusal into my adult life. It's taken a couple years to learn that effort is fun /in the moment/ too if you /care/ about it - look up flow states.

we tend to make things like exercise and so on into these grueling things that we do as if out of this sense of duty. we don't really have to do anything - we can never get out of bed and starve to death. nobody's going to judge us for that, and if the only thing that makes you choose different is feeling guilty then you need to find your motivation. for me, the less I judge myself for not doing, often the quicker I get started. it's been tough to remember that - I can still agonize with patterns like "analysis paralysis" and I have to just stop, and go do something totally unproductive until my motivation returns. It's kind of like diffused/focused thinking as applies to learning, or anabolic/catabolic processes for weight lifting.

Re: A practical guide for learning meditation through the art of gaming

#12

Post by aaimnr »

The fact that meditative absorptions are a type of Flow experience (very unique one, see below), doesn't mean that any Flow state is meditation. These games may very well induce a flow state (as Flappy Birds can, if you're good at it), but it doesn't make it meditation.

Here's a quote from Culadasa, a neurophysiologist and an adept meditator:

"What sets both Meditative Joy and flow apart from ordinary Joy is that it is an internally generated state of mind, providing its own satisfaction independently of external rewards.

What sets Meditative Joy apart from other forms of flow is that the flow-inducing activity takes place entirely within the mind itself, and the skill being applied is concentration, rather than concentration arising secondary to the focused application of other skills."

The following handout he wrote about flow, meditation and meditative joy may help appreciate the difference (see page 6 for dicussion on Flow): http://dharmatreasure.org/wp-content/uploads/Meditation%20an...

PS. I don't mean to say that these games are not useful, in fact knowing the feeling of 'external flow' probably helps in learning meditation. Meditation as a skill, however, has a better 'knowledge transfer' factor, meaning that with time you can learn to sustain concentration while immersed in daily life activities.

Re: A practical guide for learning meditation through the art of gaming

#14

Post by cJ0th »

aaimnr wrote: post #12

The fact that meditative absorptions are a type of Flow experience (very unique one, see below), doesn't mean that any Flow state is meditation. These games may very well induce a flow state (as Flappy Birds can, if you're good at it), but it doesn't make it meditation. Here's a quote from Culadasa, a neurophysiologist and an adept meditator: "What sets both Meditative Joy and flow apart from ordinary Joy is that it…

> What sets Meditative Joy apart from other forms of flow is that the flow-inducing activity takes place entirely within the mind itself, and the skill being applied is concentration, rather than concentration arising secondary to the focused application of other skills."

I am really not sure this is true. Here is a quote from Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind:

> If you are concentrated on your breathing you will forget your- self, and if you forget yourself you will be concentrated on your breathing. I do not know which is first. So actually there is no need to try too hard to be concentrated on your breath- ing. Just do as much as you can. If you continue this practice, eventually you will experience the true existence which comes from emptiness.

So yes, you induce meditation by choosing (in your mind) to watch your breath but that's no different from choosing to play a game. Furthermore you're merely watching your breath, not controlling it. So it could be argued that the concentration arises secondary like it does when you focus on a game.

But then again arguing takes places on a dualistic level, so what's the point (in this specific case)?

Re: A practical guide for learning meditation through the art of gaming

#15

Post by aaimnr »

cJ0th wrote: post #14
aaimnr wrote: post #12

The fact that meditative absorptions are a type of Flow experience (very unique one, see below), doesn't mean that any Flow state is meditation. These games may very well induce a flow state (as Flappy Birds can, if you're good at it), but it doesn't make it meditation. Here's a quote from Culadasa, a neurophysiologist and an adept meditator: "What sets both Meditative Joy and flow apart from ordinary Joy is that it…

> What sets Meditative Joy apart from other forms of flow is that the flow-inducing activity takes place entirely within the mind itself, and the skill being applied is concentration, rather than concentration arising secondary to the focused application of other skills." I am really not sure this is true. Here is a quote from Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind: > If you are concentrated on your breathing you will forget your…

I don't see how the quote from Suzuki contradicts Culadasa. When concentrating on the breath, the skill is the concentration itself (in fact Culadasa teaches breath meditation). You're not trying to do something specific with the breath, you're "doing" something only with attention and awareness. You're learning to control the "muscle" of attention and awareness. And samadhi or meditative state, is nothing more than stable attention and powerful awareness. So there's no intermediate action involved.

You confirm it yourself by pointing out that one merely 'watches' the breath. Indeed proper watching _is_ the skill of concentration. On the other hand you can't play Flappy Birds by merely watching it, you have to actually play it. In this case concentration arises as a consequence of repetitively and successfully achieving the game goal (not hitting the pipes). In case of meditation the reward and meditative joy are the results of the concentration (successfully sustaining attention) itself.

The handout linked above and Culadasa's book explain it in great detail.

BTW I agree that the distinction is far from trivial.

Re: A practical guide for learning meditation through the art of gaming

#16

Post by gerbilly »

cJ0th wrote: post #14
aaimnr wrote: post #12

The fact that meditative absorptions are a type of Flow experience (very unique one, see below), doesn't mean that any Flow state is meditation. These games may very well induce a flow state (as Flappy Birds can, if you're good at it), but it doesn't make it meditation. Here's a quote from Culadasa, a neurophysiologist and an adept meditator: "What sets both Meditative Joy and flow apart from ordinary Joy is that it…

> What sets Meditative Joy apart from other forms of flow is that the flow-inducing activity takes place entirely within the mind itself, and the skill being applied is concentration, rather than concentration arising secondary to the focused application of other skills." I am really not sure this is true. Here is a quote from Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind: > If you are concentrated on your breathing you will forget your…

>So yes, you induce meditation by choosing (in your mind) to watch your breath but that's no different from choosing to play a game.

It's not a coincidence that so many schools decided to teach focusing on the breath.

Your breath is correlated strongly with both your metal state and physical state.

Also your breath is always with you, and can be put under the control of your will, or become completely automatic. (New meditators often struggle with this.)

Because of this it makes a uniquely useful focus for meditation.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anapanasati

Re: A practical guide for learning meditation through the art of gaming

#17

Post by DaveSapien »

hosh wrote: post #8
DaveSapien wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I noticed this also. Its a reoccurring theme in conversations I have with nongamers that "respect" gaming, they really do respect it, but find it difficult to get past the subject matter of the game and focus on the gameplay. I'm hoping to tackle that with my new game. Basicly it looks spiritual (it actually is to me) but offers fairly standard gaming mechanics. Just hoping it might help people get beyond the su…

I like to keep my eye on projects like this. Do you have a mailing list or a twitter or something I can follow? Or would you mind elaborating on this more?

Sure, I'm @DaveSapien. Please ignore the last few tweets about surveillance in the UK. Everything else is about my work, I try not to clutter the stream up. Its a game where you draw a (perfect) circle and avoid villains. Contact me on Twitter and I'll set you up with a beta, almost at that stage. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cxvo7HVWgAAqwOd.jpg:large

Re: A practical guide for learning meditation through the art of gaming

#18

Post by mixermf »

cJ0th wrote: post #14
aaimnr wrote: post #12

The fact that meditative absorptions are a type of Flow experience (very unique one, see below), doesn't mean that any Flow state is meditation. These games may very well induce a flow state (as Flappy Birds can, if you're good at it), but it doesn't make it meditation. Here's a quote from Culadasa, a neurophysiologist and an adept meditator: "What sets both Meditative Joy and flow apart from ordinary Joy is that it…

> What sets Meditative Joy apart from other forms of flow is that the flow-inducing activity takes place entirely within the mind itself, and the skill being applied is concentration, rather than concentration arising secondary to the focused application of other skills." I am really not sure this is true. Here is a quote from Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind: > If you are concentrated on your breathing you will forget your…

There is an important difference between meditating on a game and meditating on your breath: meditating on your breath is boring --- and that boredom is good for you. According to Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche "Boredom is part of the discipline of meditation practice" [1].

As for the relevance of arguing / debating: not everything is non dual (in a manner of speaking). In Tibetan Buddhism this is reflected in the Two Truth doctrine, where there are two levels of truth: relative and absolute. Absolute is non-dual, whereas the relative is where we live our dualistic lives. Tibet has a long history of debate.

[1] http://www.lionsroar.com/chogyam-trungpa-on-cool-boredom/ [2] http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-nichtern/boredom-as-medi...

Re: A practical guide for learning meditation through the art of gaming

#19

Post by aaimnr »

cJ0th wrote: post #14
aaimnr wrote: post #12

The fact that meditative absorptions are a type of Flow experience (very unique one, see below), doesn't mean that any Flow state is meditation. These games may very well induce a flow state (as Flappy Birds can, if you're good at it), but it doesn't make it meditation. Here's a quote from Culadasa, a neurophysiologist and an adept meditator: "What sets both Meditative Joy and flow apart from ordinary Joy is that it…

> What sets Meditative Joy apart from other forms of flow is that the flow-inducing activity takes place entirely within the mind itself, and the skill being applied is concentration, rather than concentration arising secondary to the focused application of other skills." I am really not sure this is true. Here is a quote from Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind: > If you are concentrated on your breathing you will forget your…

>But then again arguing takes places on a dualistic level, so what's the point (in this specific case)?

Meditation is a skill. To practice any skill, you first have to understand it conceptually. So clear understanding is important.

On the other hand speaking of duality vs non-duality doesn't seem to be useful, as it's something one has to realise non-conceptually. The only way to do it is through practice. Which, again, to be done correctly requires some proper conceptual understanding (of the practice method, not of the end goal).

That's why sometimes it's useful to argue about such distinctions.

Re: A practical guide for learning meditation through the art of gaming

#20

Post by freshhawk »

aaimnr wrote: post #12

The fact that meditative absorptions are a type of Flow experience (very unique one, see below), doesn't mean that any Flow state is meditation. These games may very well induce a flow state (as Flappy Birds can, if you're good at it), but it doesn't make it meditation. Here's a quote from Culadasa, a neurophysiologist and an adept meditator: "What sets both Meditative Joy and flow apart from ordinary Joy is that it…

I find they are nearly the opposite types of flow, at least if you are talking about mindfulness meditation.

Even with more zen type mediation where you try to empty your mind, it's still very different from a game flow state. The entire point of concentrating on your breathing is that your breathing is always there and is boring!

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