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I had a health crisis in France

latimes.com

21–30 of 312 posts

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#21
This is normal on all western Europe states. However France has very high standards in general about health care and is regarded as one of the best systems. I think it's time for US citizens to accept that most of Europe has better life expectancy, lower infant mortality than US, and to be ill is not a financial tragedy. Moreover the treatment that a low-income and high-income citizen receives is very similar, so there is a lot less social discrimination. If this is not enough to show that the US system has issues, note that also in US, healthcare procedures are generally overpriced compared to their costs around the world. There is obviously a problem to fix and Obama was going in the right direction.

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#22

For a Western European this is the normal.

As a matter of fact, I'm very surprised he had to pay anything at all. 1300 euro for hospital bed and food? This should be completely free.

True. In Spain it would be 100% free.

Maybe he has some kind of private health insurance. Here it's very common when you have kids or you don't want to wait for your turn for non critical medical assistance.

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#23
I was hospitalised in France last year - and coming from the UK, which has a social healthcare system too, I was likewise blown away by the quality of care.

I was staying in a remote house, miles from the nearest village, an hour from the nearest hospital. After about four days of continuous vomiting in 40 degree heat I caved and called a doctor, in the hope of getting a prescription for antiemetics over the phone. It's Sunday. I figure it's a long shot but can't hurt.

Well, I call and she says "sorry, can't give you a prescription over the phone - but the doctor will be with you in ten minutes". I was sat there expecting a call back when the doctor shows up at my house. Checks me over, says I need IV fluids pronto, do you want an ambulance for €20 or do you want to get yourself there.

Wife gives me a ride to the hospital an hour away. The place has recently undergone big budget cuts so they've mothballed a big chunk of it, and it looked a bit sad, but inside everything was new and clean, and I'm seen within a few minutes of arriving. By a consultant surgeon who was called in to arrive a few minutes before me. I'm given fluids, blood tests, a CT and an MRI, and about six hours later an functioning again, and they're saying I can stay or leave, my choice, and here's a folder of information for you to follow up on back home.

All of this cost less than €60, and I honestly felt like I had all of France mustered and rallied to my care.

I had a similar experience earlier this year in the U.K., and the contrast was significant - in the U.K. one feels like an irritation and an inconvenience. "Bloody hell, what's a patient doing here? This is a hospital!". I still got decent treatment, of course, but it was all with a grumbling, discontented overtone - and despite it being a new (15 yr) old hospital, unbelievable amounts of equipment didn't work. There was a diabetic guy on a sugar monitor/drip on my ward that kept crashing - so their solution was to have him wake up and reboot it every 20 minutes so he didn't die. They didn't have another one available.

It's just astonishing to see how two supposedly similar socialised healthcare systems can end up so very different in their output.

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#24
post #9

Medicine is one of those few fields the "socialized" approach is actually the better one. Of course you would prefer a I-don't-want-to-pay-for-others* stance when you are young and healthy (ie provided you were not born with a genetic condition or something similar), but once you start aging and caring, you start appreciating why Medicine as practiced in Europe makes much more sense in the end. *even Ayn Rand alleged…

I-don't-want-to-pay-for-others != I will not insure my health.

US health system needs competition more than socialism [1].

[1] https://mises.org/blog/lack-epipen-competitors-fdas-fault

EDIT: A really good comment from link above.

Mark S - https://mises.org/blog/lack-epipen-competitors-fdas-fault#co...

The culprit in virtually all health care or drug price gouging outrages is insurance and "free" taxpayer money. Americans want someone else to pay for their health care -- the insurance pool, Medicare, Medicaid, the VA, the hospital (if they are indigent). Drug makers know that someone else (not the patient) is paying for the drug, that payee has no economic incentive to minimize costs, and so drug makers do not care or have an economic incentive to control their costs or limit their prices. Somebody else is paying, so who care what the drug costs. Insurance companies pass costs along in the form of escalating premiums, so they have no incentive to control costs (especially in the Obamacare environment where health insurance providers are exiting the market leaving the remaining firms with a monopoly); giverment health programs have virtually unlimited access to taxpayer money (and, in the end, money printed by the Fed), so they have no incentive to control costs; health care providers also know that the patient is not paying the bill, so they have no incentive to prescribe or investigate more afforadable alternatives.

People never ask "So, what does this drug/treatment cost?" but rather "Do you accept my insurance?"

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#25
post #6

> My individual burden, however, is far more reasonable than > an American might assume. I pay an annual income tax of > about 23%. How comes this number is that low? Tax revenue in France account for about 48% of the country's GDP[1]. I'm living in Belgium, and my payroll tax is already higher than these 23%. -- [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_reven...

In France you pay 0 % taxes for the first 9.700 € of income, then 14 % for everything up to 26.791 €, then 30 % for everything up to 71.826 €, then 41 % for everything up to 152.108 € and 45 % for everything beyond that [1]. Hence 23 % effective tax rate sounds reasonable for an average income of around 50.000 €. The tax system in many European countries is similar btw, as is the health system. [1] https://fr.wikiped…

That only covers income tax - social security contributions are heavy (but deductible from the income tax).

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#26
post #6

> My individual burden, however, is far more reasonable than > an American might assume. I pay an annual income tax of > about 23%. How comes this number is that low? Tax revenue in France account for about 48% of the country's GDP[1]. I'm living in Belgium, and my payroll tax is already higher than these 23%. -- [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_reven...

In France you pay 0 % taxes for the first 9.700 € of income, then 14 % for everything up to 26.791 €, then 30 % for everything up to 71.826 €, then 41 % for everything up to 152.108 € and 45 % for everything beyond that [1]. Hence 23 % effective tax rate sounds reasonable for an average income of around 50.000 €. The tax system in many European countries is similar btw, as is the health system. [1] https://fr.wikiped…

And btw there is a very good reason for those tiered systems. Imagine people making 26k and paying 14%. They end up with 22,360. If they get a 5k pay rise they make 31k, pay 30% and end up with 21,700. Would they want that raise? No thanks, but a system preventing some pay raises would be insane.

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#27

The US spends more per capita on health care than other OECD countries, even ones with universal public health care: http://kff.org/health-costs/issue-brief/snapshots-health-car... And yet the US has lower life expectancy than those countries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expe...

Infant mortality is also 75% higher in the US compared to France: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/...

Most of the difference between US and other OECD countries in infant mortality is that the US has a much lower standard for what's considered a viable birth. Basically, lots of what in France are classified as still births would be infant deaths in the US.

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#28
The French health system has its own problems.

There is little evaluation of physicians so picking a hospital is very much a lottery, unless you know insiders who will tell you where to go and not to go.

The system runs a massive financial deficit.

It is run in an administrative way which creates odds behaviors. For instance department allowances based on % of occupation of hospital beds, which lead them to keep people overnight unnecessarily to preserve their budgets.

The system is very liberal in term of allowing you to see specialists. That's great in certain ways. The UK suffers from the opposite, where generalists' job seem to be to prevent people from seeing a specialist. But it is also a paradise for hypochondriac patients who will do dozens of useless exams subsidised by the tax payer.

Like many centralised etatic system (and particularly in France), friends in the right places, political affiliation and freemasonry are more important drivers for a career than medecine.

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#29

For a Western European this is the normal.

As a matter of fact, I'm very surprised he had to pay anything at all. 1300 euro for hospital bed and food? This should be completely free.

He says he used wifi, TV, telephone, and asked for a better room. If he didn't ask for this, I think he wouldn't have pay anything. The French hospitals offer a lot of paid bonuses. I think it's a good thing, it allows to make the basic needs free.

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#30
I still giggle a bit every single time one of these EU healthcare stories pops up.

It highlights a core difference between one of the two most "advanced" places in the western world.

For us Europeans, we don't even think that free healthcare, free education ( university included ) , and free state support when things go wrong is a right.

It is a as essential as a core human function as breathing and blinking. We don't notice it, it's just there.

And most of us are more than happy to pay higher taxes in order for us ( or our fellow citizens ) to enjoy these.

Granted , our taxes could be better managed, institutions could be more efficient, and governments less corrupt. But until someone shows us - with long term data backing up these claims - that there is a better alternative , we will keep giggling .

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