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NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show (2013)

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Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show (2013)

#21

Post by Keyframe »

datamoshr wrote: post #8

The thing that bothers me most about this as a European is; I have zero say in this, in the US you can strike out against surveillance, you can write to senators, protest against terrible legislation. Actually have a voice, however faint it is. Whereas I don't get a say but the exact same treatment from your country. The Five Eyes have made me paranoid and the only escape seems to be downgrading your phone to a brick…

You can write to your MEP and ask for clarification on what are they doing in order to protect you from, what essentially amounts to, a hostile act from foreign power. Twist is they are working with them.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show (2013)

#22

Post by coroutines »

datamoshr wrote: post #8

The thing that bothers me most about this as a European is; I have zero say in this, in the US you can strike out against surveillance, you can write to senators, protest against terrible legislation. Actually have a voice, however faint it is. Whereas I don't get a say but the exact same treatment from your country. The Five Eyes have made me paranoid and the only escape seems to be downgrading your phone to a brick…

I was happy to see the disgust people had for the CIA black sites operated in other countries when that came to light during the Bush presidency. Not because of the torture, but because people here expected alleged terrorists to have the same rights as detained American citizens. I feel this is important to note, because we have a large population of young voters who I feel have concern for everyone - not just the US. This is very different from how my grandparents vote and I do think it's split along generational lines. In regards to overreaching surveillance: It's not ideal, but we over here do think of you when we vote.. I do.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show (2013)

#24

Post by MichaelGG »

datamoshr wrote: post #8

The thing that bothers me most about this as a European is; I have zero say in this, in the US you can strike out against surveillance, you can write to senators, protest against terrible legislation. Actually have a voice, however faint it is. Whereas I don't get a say but the exact same treatment from your country. The Five Eyes have made me paranoid and the only escape seems to be downgrading your phone to a brick…

Is there any reason to believe that no European countries do this kind of thing? Relative to national budgets, this kind of stuff can't cost that much. Dunno where the EU is on their EU-level army right now, but it'd stand to reason that a EU-security org would do exactly this kind of stuff. The UK certainly has no qualms about it.

Even the US's allies will try stunts as bad as false flag bombings[1]. So it's not like they can only monitor non-allies. So they can't shut down spying, and perhaps it just becomes a never-ending escalation of power then. Might as well grab all data. I don't like it, but I can understand how they might arrive at that position.

Probably the only hope is to outlaw this worldwide, perhaps in some human rights kind of thing, then actually apply punishment for those caught. That seems unlikely to really work though. Even now, we have countries that steal nuclear tech and don't get punished - few will view spying as worse than that.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show (2013)

#25

Post by dunkelheit »

f_allwein wrote: post #18
dunkelheit wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Time-proven way of influencing decisions made by other countries is having a strong army. Recently it has gone slightly out of fashion, but the general principle still holds. Those without power are not reckoned with.

and then what? Declare war on the US?

Of course not. The point is to have a strong BATNA, as negotiations people put it. The USA is actually a great example of this principle. Their military spending is the biggest in the world. What for? Do they intend to eradicate all other nations so that only Americans remain? I hope not. More probably, they spend all these resources because they don't like it when other nations tell them what to do.

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show (2013)

#27

Post by dijit »

jdimov10 wrote: post #5
ffggvv wrote: post #3

This shows clearly that Putin is a dictator, that China is communist and that the USA spys the entire world to protect its citizens freedom. /s

Ok, Putin is a dictator (duh). How is that ANY worse in ANY way than what America has? Seriously, people, get over your ridiculous democracy addiction, it's killing more people annually than all other drugs combined. Westerners are so brainwashed, you think your shit smells better than everyone else's. It doesn't. It's worse in many respects. And even if it IS better in some respects, nobody wants your shit pushed do…

You're being downvoted because you're going on an opinionated rant. There is however a term coined to engage discussion about the totalitarian actuality of extremely large democracies.[0]

The issue is, when you invoke the name people laugh you off as a conspiracy theorist.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show (2013)

#28

Post by peteretep »

datamoshr wrote: post #8

The thing that bothers me most about this as a European is; I have zero say in this, in the US you can strike out against surveillance, you can write to senators, protest against terrible legislation. Actually have a voice, however faint it is. Whereas I don't get a say but the exact same treatment from your country. The Five Eyes have made me paranoid and the only escape seems to be downgrading your phone to a brick…

    > as a European is; I have zero say in this
While I don't like this, since when have foreign citizens ever had a say in a country's espionage and military programs?

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show (2013)

#29

Post by blockross »

coroutines wrote: post #22
datamoshr wrote: post #8

The thing that bothers me most about this as a European is; I have zero say in this, in the US you can strike out against surveillance, you can write to senators, protest against terrible legislation. Actually have a voice, however faint it is. Whereas I don't get a say but the exact same treatment from your country. The Five Eyes have made me paranoid and the only escape seems to be downgrading your phone to a brick…

I was happy to see the disgust people had for the CIA black sites operated in other countries when that came to light during the Bush presidency. Not because of the torture, but because people here expected alleged terrorists to have the same rights as detained American citizens. I feel this is important to note, because we have a large population of young voters who I feel have concern for everyone - not just the US…

unfortunately you're part of a minority. The mere fact that the election will happen between Clinton and Trump makes me think that mass surveillance and lack of respect for other countries are going to continue and probably worsen.

Clinton: http://time.com/4150694/hillary-clinton-calls-for-more-surve...

Trump (not that it's really necessary): http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/26167...

Re: NSA tracking cellphone locations worldwide, Snowden documents show (2013)

#30

Post by kaffee »

benevol wrote: post #13
dandelion_lover wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...or make you think you have done something useful.

The "Brexit" stats have clearly shown that UK would have remained in the EU if the "millenials" had really made use of their right to vote. The "old" generation (voting to leave the EU) clearly understands the value of their vote(s).

Voter turnout was at record levels. It's not obvious that greater turnout of "millennials" specifically was likely to happen. Typically it's difficult to ensure that one kind of voter turns out without also increasing the rate of turnout for other kinds of voters as well.
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