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NoSQL v. SQL is the worst holy war ever.

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Re: NoSQL v. SQL is the worst holy war ever.

#21

Post by warfangle »

kmuzykov wrote: post #12
kmuzykov wrote: post #11

Recently I've researched all NoSQL databases(grpaph oriented to be precise). We're building a project which I think fits best in NoSQL solution. And I did not find any suitable solution. Either it doesn't a have client api(we're using .NET) other then REST or plain TCP/IP (and of course I don't have time to create my own API) Either this is just some project more like a school homework. Do you seriously believe that…

Another problem is deployment, if I adopt some RDBMS system to my needs, then I already have a bunch of web hostings supporting this type of DB or I can use installer to deploy the DB, run a few scripts and everything is ready to run.

Deployment with, e.g., Neo4J involves simply telling the Neo4J library which path to use for its binary data files at initialization time. It finds a DB if it's there and uses it, otherwise it creates it. Applicable line of code from their wiki:

  GraphDatabaseService graphDb = new EmbeddedGraphDatabase( "var/graphdb" );
Of course, Neo4J is an embedded solution. It's quite different than using a separate server application.

Re: NoSQL v. SQL is the worst holy war ever.

#22

Post by wvenable »

bphogan wrote: post #15
dasil003 wrote: post #5

NoSQL is designed to address a certain problem space and RDBMS is designed to address another. I don't see it that way at all. It's more like RDBMS is the all-purpose data store that attempts to distill the maximum number conceivable data storage, integrity constraints and lookup requirements into a set of powerful primitives. And NoSQL is a large group of technologies that are each optimized for specific cases which…

I agree with this, but I'd add that we developers tend to make an RDBMS do everything because it's what they're familiar with. NoSQL is an alternative to solve a specific problem, but you can't see that problem if you're ignorant of it. It's like my experience with SVN vs Git. I didn't know how useful and more efficient my workflow would be if I used branches, so I never saw why Git was useful. Sure I could branch in…

The same argument about branches in source control can made about SQL itself. In my opinion, a large number of developers don't know how to code SQL properly and a lot are afraid of it. They end up using an RDBMS as nothing more than a dumb bit bucket -- often hidden behind increasingly complex abstractions. The NoSQL movement, unintentionally, lets these programmers feel superior about their lack of knowledge.

I don't want to argue against the legitimate use of NoSQL solutions. I just don't think there are enough use-cases to justify the hype. For example, an article was posted here last week about using NoSQL solution to store e-commerce orders.

Re: NoSQL v. SQL is the worst holy war ever.

#23

Post by simonw »

kmuzykov wrote: post #20
simonw wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually think this says something interesting about .NET v.s. open source platforms. The new batch of NoSQL products are being developed almost exclusively in the open source world - they're written to run on *nix (Windows support, if it exists at all, is generally an after thought) and the client libraries that ship with them target the open source languages first. In this particular case, it feels like closed-so…

Then this new holy war boils down to an good old *nix vs windows holy war, or open-source vs closed applications.

Absolutely - to my shame, I only appreciated the irony of re-hashing an older holy war on this thread after I'd posted the comment!

Re: NoSQL v. SQL is the worst holy war ever.

#25

Post by arethuza »

nostrademons wrote: post #16
pw0ncakes wrote: post #3

I'm going to declare something else the worst holy war ever. Then we can have an even worse holy war than ever was before, making ourselves both wrong.

I think the Crusades were the worst holy war ever. There. Problem solved. Unless you wanna kill a few hundred thousand people and go to war for a few hundred years. (If I'd said "The holocaust", I could've Godwinned this thread, but that wasn't really a holy war.)

That's quite an interesting point - if you restrict holy wars to the "my imaginary friend is better than your imaginary friend.... fight!" kind then you are probably correct.

I'm trying to think of other real "holy wars" - the 30 Years War is perhaps the only other major one I can think of. I guess most other "holy wars" are really justs lingering fall out from conquests Ottoman invasion of Europe, Ireland, .....

Re: NoSQL v. SQL is the worst holy war ever.

#26

Post by viraptor »

nostrademons wrote: post #16
pw0ncakes wrote: post #3

I'm going to declare something else the worst holy war ever. Then we can have an even worse holy war than ever was before, making ourselves both wrong.

I think the Crusades were the worst holy war ever. There. Problem solved. Unless you wanna kill a few hundred thousand people and go to war for a few hundred years. (If I'd said "The holocaust", I could've Godwinned this thread, but that wasn't really a holy war.)

Does "War on terror" count as a holy war? Then we could have a contest after all. It's not a few hundred years yet, but give it some time to unfold ;)

Re: NoSQL v. SQL is the worst holy war ever.

#27

Post by thibaut_barrere »

I have that wish for humanity: I'd really like people to use words that are in proportion with what they describe.

Things like: "we're dead" (when we just talk about loosing a contract or even closing one company), "it's totally catastrophic" (when someone cannot make it to a meeting, or the vegetables you had planned for dinner are not available anymore at the groceries).

Come on.

Talking about "worst holy war" for tooling trends - sorry, not for me, even for the purpose of creating a catchy headline or of underlining a point.

Oh and yes: I use both NoSQL and SQL, sometimes in conjunction in the same system.

Re: NoSQL v. SQL is the worst holy war ever.

#28

Post by berntb »

nostrademons wrote: post #16
pw0ncakes wrote: post #3

I'm going to declare something else the worst holy war ever. Then we can have an even worse holy war than ever was before, making ourselves both wrong.

I think the Crusades were the worst holy war ever. There. Problem solved. Unless you wanna kill a few hundred thousand people and go to war for a few hundred years. (If I'd said "The holocaust", I could've Godwinned this thread, but that wasn't really a holy war.)

Interesting... how were the Crusades larger/worse than the muslim expansion all the way to Spain/Balkan/India?

(Let us bunch the Crusades as one single example, at least for this argument.)

(The Huns/Mongols were religiously tolerant and motivated by conquest, right?)

Re: NoSQL v. SQL is the worst holy war ever.

#29

Post by coderdude »

thibaut_barrere wrote: post #27

I have that wish for humanity: I'd really like people to use words that are in proportion with what they describe. Things like: "we're dead" (when we just talk about loosing a contract or even closing one company), "it's totally catastrophic" (when someone cannot make it to a meeting, or the vegetables you had planned for dinner are not available anymore at the groceries). Come on. Talking about "worst holy war" for…

>I use both NoSQL and SQL, sometimes in conjunction in the same system.

As any sane developer would, and without having to go all-or-none either which way. I don't understand the people who are balls to the wall for either side. They both have a purpose.

Re: NoSQL v. SQL is the worst holy war ever.

#30

Post by berntb »

arethuza wrote: post #25
nostrademons wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the Crusades were the worst holy war ever. There. Problem solved. Unless you wanna kill a few hundred thousand people and go to war for a few hundred years. (If I'd said "The holocaust", I could've Godwinned this thread, but that wasn't really a holy war.)

That's quite an interesting point - if you restrict holy wars to the "my imaginary friend is better than your imaginary friend.... fight!" kind then you are probably correct. I'm trying to think of other real "holy wars" - the 30 Years War is perhaps the only other major one I can think of. I guess most other "holy wars" are really justs lingering fall out from conquests Ottoman invasion of Europe, Ireland, .....

The 30 Year War was really a Holy war?

Consider that Sweden, one of the big participants, was financed by the famously Protestant country France! :-)

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