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School grades are hopelessly broken

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Re: School grades are hopelessly broken

#21

Post by hga »

holograham wrote: post #10
wheaties wrote: post #2

Great, I wouldn't hire you. I don't care how smart you are. Just on the basis of effort you're willing to put forward on tasks you deem unimportant to you means that I can't trust you to perform tasks that I deem important to me. I need someone willing to work through "bullshit" tasks just as much as I need someone to work on "gee-whiz-wow" tasks.

As an employer if you are handing out bullshit tasks then no one competent would want to to work for you. If the tasks actually aren't bullshit, it is up to you to convey the importance of the task to your employees. Same goes with teachers and assignments.

What if your customer or the government demands that your company do some "bullshit tasks"?

Re: School grades are hopelessly broken

#22

Post by pw0ncakes »

sanj wrote: post #11
chanux wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This type is not the get-hired type. It's the do-things-different-and-change-the-world type.

You'd be surprised at how many of the tasks are BS-y when changing the world.

You need to take a middle ground. Not doing a mundane task for no other reason than it's "boring" is immature and self-defeating. On the other hand, it's important not to become the office garbage disposal.

"Grunt work" that you learn from or that sets you up to do more interesting work is not so bad. If you build a city, you need to maintain the sewer system. If your company has you maintaining 8 peoples' cities because you're young and expected to pay dues, you should get another job.

Re: School grades are hopelessly broken

#23

Post by nerme »

wheaties wrote: post #2

Great, I wouldn't hire you. I don't care how smart you are. Just on the basis of effort you're willing to put forward on tasks you deem unimportant to you means that I can't trust you to perform tasks that I deem important to me. I need someone willing to work through "bullshit" tasks just as much as I need someone to work on "gee-whiz-wow" tasks.

Awesome, so what kind of people are working for you? Did any of them pretty much single handily engineer tumblr?

Or do you have a bunch of shmucks who plod in to work, do what they are told (and never any more), and then plod back home?

Have you ever thought that maybe the most successful businesses are the ones where the employees are bright and motivated and will actually call YOU out on your bullshit ideas? Do you really think that every idea that you deem important really is important?

Re: School grades are hopelessly broken

#24

Post by chrischen »

hga wrote: post #19
grinich wrote: post #6

On the topic of grade inflation: In 1966, 22% of Harvard undergraduate students earned A's. By 1996, that figure rose to 46%. That same year, 82% of Harvard seniors graduated with honors. In 1973, 31% of all grades at Princeton were A's. By 1997 that rose to 43%. In 1997, only 12% of all grades given at Princeton were below the B range. (source: Source: American Academy of Arts & Sciences) One of the best things abou…

Well, I'd say it's an aspect of one of the best things, that MIT is firmly dedicated to meritocracy. If you belong in your department (and there is at least one for you) and put in the work, you'll get As and Bs and the degree at the end. A reflection of this is that you are allowed a "saving throw" in your final semester: you can petition to graduate if you are lacking just one required course that you earned an F i…

Do they have legacy admissions?

Re: School grades are hopelessly broken

#25

Post by kscaldef »

vitobcn wrote: post #16

I acknowledge there's a problem with the current grading system, yet I am still convinced that grades are correlated with one's aptitude/intelligence. In my personal experience though, I only noticed the inflated grades problem in the US. While I was an undergrad engineering student in Spain there were some classes where not even 50% of the students passed, and overall, only 5% of them graduated with the minimum amou…

In my experience, grades in grad school were a pure formality. You were there to do research not classwork, but the college required grades and you needed a B average to stay enrolled, so half the class got As and half got Bs. As long as you passed your quals and kept your advisor happy with your research, no one really cared about anything else.

Re: School grades are hopelessly broken

#26

Post by yosho »

Another person who believes that intelligence overrides hard work.

Sorry but I'm calling BS on this one. Intelligence might allow you to score well on tests while not finishing your homework, but it's hard work and dedication that truly makes someone successful at what they do.

Re: School grades are hopelessly broken

#27

Post by chrischen »

sanj wrote: post #11
chanux wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This type is not the get-hired type. It's the do-things-different-and-change-the-world type.

You'd be surprised at how many of the tasks are BS-y when changing the world.

Boring does not equal BS-y. BS work is pointless, while boring might be understandably necessary. The authors complaint was of BS work, not necessarily of boring work. You can tell if he is simply avoidant of boring work by seeing if he carries out projects which he sees value toward, and whether or not he does everything, including the boring stuff, to completion. I'll admit his article doesn't actually give insight to this, but it's safe to assume.

Re: School grades are hopelessly broken

#28

Post by pw0ncakes »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #14
chanux wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This type is not the get-hired type. It's the do-things-different-and-change-the-world type.

Yeah, that's a nice thought, but not really reflective of reality. First, the guy already has a job, which he clearly states in the essay. Second, the majority of people who change the world have jobs at different points in their career. People like Gates, Jobs, and Dell who never really had jobs and just did their own thing from day 1 are so far an exception that they're probably worthless as role models in that sen…

People like Gates, Jobs, and Dell who never really had jobs and just did their own thing from day 1 are so far an exception that they're probably worthless as role models in that sense.

Right. They are like pro athletes. Their work ethic is to be admired, but expecting one's life to be anything like theirs without great evidence is idiocy.

Some do, but so do some people who work hard, apply themselves, and get as much as they can out of the broken system. In fact, I'm betting that more of the latter do, but that's just my opinion.

I think so. American high school life is a pretend world. Much of it-- prom, the cafeteria hierarchy, the make-work assignments, the goofy assemblies-- is bullshit. On the other hand, a few of the classes and teachers are really good. Why not take advantage of the few opportunities that do present themselves?

Re: School grades are hopelessly broken

#29

Post by tokenadult »

maxklein wrote: post #15

Get this: Most people are not hypersmart creative individuals. They are normal people who need to learn some basic material about the world that they likely will never use because they don't care. The grading system caters to them, and it's a pretty good indicator of which of those people is going to be able to successfully do a standard job placed in front of him. School was made for average people, if you are so mu…

If you failed a test designed for average people, then by that criteria, you are below average.

There are numerous counterexamples to this in the gifted education literature. If a teacher writes a test without fact-checking the approved answers, it is possible for a child who has a better grasp of the facts than the teacher to get a bad score on the test, while a child who parrots the teacher's mistaken view of the facts gets a good score.

The system actually lets down all learners, above-average, average, and below-average, but that's not only in the form of lousy grading standards. For detailed references to this, see the books

http://books.google.com/books?id=EjkKBotJcyIC&dq=Knowing...

and

http://books.google.com/books?id=7ncMKDdCd84C&printsec=f...

and the articles

http://archive.aft.org/pubs-reports/american_educator/fall99...

and

http://www.ams.org/notices/200502/fea-kenschaft.pdf

and

http://archive.aft.org/pubs-reports/american_educator/issues...

There are more articles on similar subjects showing that much school improvement is necessary.

P.S. It may be you are not a native speaker of English, or you are a native speaker of English like me who types rapidly under conditions of distraction. I just wanted to point out, in a way that I hope will be friendly, that "criteria" is the plural of "criterion," so one can write of "that criterion" (singular) or "those criteria" (plural) as occasion demands.

Re: School grades are hopelessly broken

#30

Post by cobralibre »

For any intelligent youth, a typical high school education is not unlike a dull corporate job, but with a blessed excess of Google-style 20% time. The effort required to achieve the goals expected of you is minimal, and meanwhile, you have a level of free time to explore your passions that most people will never have again. Some teens recognize this and exploit it.

On a personal note, being able to blow off high school and still go to college requires a level of financial privilege that neither I nor anybody else in my family enjoyed. There are plenty of reasons to play the high school game.

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