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Ask HN: Helping a dev who drinks?

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Re: Ask HN: Helping a dev who drinks?

#21

Post by rubberroad »

I think that the details of him brilliantly coding while at the Ballmer peak is kind of irrelevant. It can be a huge liability to have people intoxicated in the work place, and I think it's important for your manager to have an initially undocumented, private chat with him about it.

In alcoholism, an important concept is 'enabling', where you are making it easier for the person with alcoholism to continue with their habit. You are enabling your co-worker to continue drinking by giving him rides home, having interns walk him to the correct apartment, and allowing him to commit code while he is clearly under the influence.

Your manager should be setting the boundaries in the workplace regarding alcohol, but the best thing you can do as a co-worker is to be there as a friend and to listen. Take a break from the screen and step outdoors and have a conversation, because it sounds like this person is really struggling with a difficult chapter in his life right now.

Re: Ask HN: Helping a dev who drinks?

#22

Post by JusticeJuice »

contingencies wrote: post #17

Why is this an issue? Sounds awesome. Judge him by his output, not by other factors, as per the hacker manifesto. One idea is try drinking with him to give some camaraderie, then tapering down the volume. Also, obligatory XKCD @ https://www.xkcd.com/323/

That is the wrong attitude

Re: Ask HN: Helping a dev who drinks?

#23

Post by bliti »

You should approach a mental health professional and ask for guidance. A social worker might be able to help you help him in some way. Death is hard. More so when it is as reagic as you stated. It changes us and sometimes not for the better. Grieving is complex and affects everyone differently. The only option is to get informed and approach him while respecting his dignity. You may not be the right person to talk to him, but you might be able to find the person who would be. Above all, be kind. Not for his skills as a programmer. Be kind because everyone might just write him off as a loser who drinks away his problems. Best of luck.

Re: Ask HN: Helping a dev who drinks?

#24

Post by crikli »

Trying to think how I'd want this handled if you and this fellow were one of my employees...

First, I'd want you to tell me about the issue (if I wasn't aware of it already). Have you told your boss? What was his reaction?

Second, after I was told, to be quite candid, I'd be put in a tough position. If this guy is getting loaded at work, people know about it to the point where they're giving him rides, IANAL but that's a huge liability. He does something while drunk and that's coming back on the company. And the problem isn't that I'm a greedy asshole who doesn't want to get sued, it's that if I get sued then you and probably a few other people are going to lose their jobs. Depending on the size of the company a suit could destroy it.

Third, all those things considered, I have to intervene to protect this fellow, you and your colleagues and the company. That doesn't mean fire someone, that means a serious come to Jesus with this guy with the goal being to find a way to get him through this. Underwrite counseling/rehab/whatever is needed.

So...lots of words to get to this: you gotta go up the chain. This isn't your responsibility, unless you are the boss.

Re: Ask HN: Helping a dev who drinks?

#25

Post by contingencies »

JusticeJuice wrote: post #22
contingencies wrote: post #17

Why is this an issue? Sounds awesome. Judge him by his output, not by other factors, as per the hacker manifesto. One idea is try drinking with him to give some camaraderie, then tapering down the volume. Also, obligatory XKCD @ https://www.xkcd.com/323/

That is the wrong attitude

Err, many of us might argue that feeling the world is full of right and wrong divides is the wrong attitude. Hell, look at Uber and the law for an example. Systems are systems.

Re: Ask HN: Helping a dev who drinks?

#26

Post by chejazi »

Alcoholism is only a symptom of the problem. He clearly has lots of pain that needs to be addressed. You need to get his family or maybe a close friend informed. If nothing else, take it to HR. It's not an ordinary coworkers job to offer counseling on such a troubling matter. Also, his competency as a functioning alcoholic shouldn't have any influence in how to deal with this situation.

Re: Ask HN: Helping a dev who drinks?

#27

Post by Animats »

If your company has a comprehensive medical plan, such as Kaiser, you can get help from them. If you have a real HR department, they can handle it. Pros are required. Dealing with alcoholism is very tough, and it get worse with time. Consider putting him on unpaid leave and sending him to some rehab center.

Re: Ask HN: Helping a dev who drinks?

#28

Post by bfung »

rubberroad wrote: post #21

I think that the details of him brilliantly coding while at the Ballmer peak is kind of irrelevant. It can be a huge liability to have people intoxicated in the work place, and I think it's important for your manager to have an initially undocumented, private chat with him about it. In alcoholism, an important concept is 'enabling', where you are making it easier for the person with alcoholism to continue with their…

^^^^

This is what managers and HR is for. If you're uncomfortable bringing up the issue, explain to HR and have them present it as "we want to help you" and not that "you're in trouble". Depends how good your managers and HR are. It's probably best for everyone that he can move forward with his alcoholism, even for himself.

Re: Ask HN: Helping a dev who drinks?

#29

Post by mod »

LouisSayers wrote: post #19
staunch wrote: post #12

Maybe he can switch to weed? I helped a family member give up dangerous levels of drinking by helping him get a prescription. Then he gave up smoking weed entirely and now only drinks rarely. One successful example...

Ever tried coding on weed? #doesnotwork

I've never tried, but I've always read the opposite. I've seen many claims of coding better when high.

Then again, I've seen many claims of playing pool better when drunk, and that's definitely not true.

Re: Ask HN: Helping a dev who drinks?

#30

Post by saganus »

LouisSayers wrote: post #16
bcrescimanno wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who once had an experience with a coworker who was suffering with addiction / mental health issues, I agree with this comment entirely. While it's admirable to want to help as much as you can, I learned the hard way that it would have been better to simply alert family to my concerns and then step away.

If he has a family, then they'd know. He has to want to get help - this is the hard bit. I think it's crazy that you'd facilitate his drinking by driving him home, walking him around with an intern... If I were a manager id have a chat with him

>I think it's crazy that you'd facilitate his drinking by driving him home, walking him around with an intern

As opposed to what? letting him endanger his life and potentially those of others?

I don't think that at this point that's facilitating his drinking. The guy will clearly keep drinking regardless of his coworkers. Facilitating him would be letting him get drunk just so he can code faster and meet the deadlines or something like that.

>If I were a manager id have a chat with him

And have a chat about what? I don't think that someone with that level of addiction will just hear you out and say "oh yeah, he's right, I'll change my ways". And if you fire him you will probably just make things worse, thus the OP's question on how to handle this without just throwing him off at the curb.

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