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I don’t know what to do, you guys

fredrikdeboer.com

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Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#191

Post by mkr-hn »

stolio wrote: post #182
vacri wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem was that people were using Mozilla as a punching bag for their disillusionment with Eich. My favourite example was OkCupid, who detected you were using firefox and redirected you to a page telling you to use a different browser. Despite several gay developers saying that their experience at Mozilla wasn't oppressed by Eich. But the kicker was that after OkCupid got what they wanted (and got a ton of good…

I remember months after Eich resigned I was looking at new phones and I asked the salesperson if FirefoxOS was compatible with their network. She said she didn't support Mozilla because of how they had acted towards the LGBT community and that Android was the open and respectful platform I was looking for. It was very forceful, and it was clear that any further discussion of FirefoxOS meant I was a bad person. It was…

Where do you live that this is a conversation an employee would risk?

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#192

Post by stolio »

Frondo wrote: post #161
stolio wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So he was being publicly shamed and humiliated until he A) was fired B) resigned or C) renounced his personal beliefs? That's horrible. When gay people are treated this way I speak out and say it's wrong. When gay people treat people this way I speak out and say it's wrong. > That he didn't even try to correct the issue made it more likely that progressive coders would turn away. Just because he didn't prostrate hims…

He was shamed for having shameful views, yes. "Personal beliefs" isn't a get-out-of-public-reproach-free card. No one was compelled by any force of law here, either--he had beliefs that no longer meshed with contemporary views on equality and rights, and his peers, subordinates, and the world at large made it clear they didn't deem this appropriate.

> Q: Was Brendan Eich forced out by employee pressure?

> A: No. Mozilla employees expressed a wide range of views on Brendan’s appointment as CEO: the majority of them positive and in support of his leadership, or expressing disappointment in Brendan’s support of Proposition 8 but that they nonetheless felt he would be a good leader for Mozilla. A small number (fewer than 10) called for his resignation, none of whom reported to Brendan directly. However media coverage focused disproportionately on the small number of negative comments — largely ignoring the wide range of reactions across the Mozilla community.

https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2014/04/05/faq-on-ceo-resignat...

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#193

Post by [deleted] »

javajosh wrote: post #127
electronvolt wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Question: if it came out that Eich had donated to, say, the KKK, would you feel the same way? I have mixed feelings over the way he was treated, but your argument actually seems the opposite of nuanced: the blanket claim that someone should never be fired for their political views (particularly, from a public position where their politics could have an effect on the company they represent both on internal culture and…

>Question: if it came out that Eich had donated to, say, the KKK, would you feel the same way? Yep. Although that would be a much higher "this won't affect his job performance" bar than Eich's anti-gay marriage stance, which passed that bar because his was a purely religious stance and pretty clearly didn't imply personal or professional animosity toward homosexuals (amidst all the flak I never read a single anecdote…

[deleted]

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#194

Post by mkr-hn »

dragonwriter wrote: post #163
yummyfajitas wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an odd view. Right wing politics in the US claims to lean toward reducing/dismantling SS and the welfare state, radically changing immigration and education policy. (In reality they are prevented from doing this, of course.) In contrast, left wing politicians just want to throw more money at the same things.

> Right wing politics in the US claims to lean toward reducing/dismantling SS and the welfare state, radically changing immigration and education policy. That's not generally true. Right wing politics usually claims its for the first two things, and one form of the last, but generally opposes substantial reforms of immigration policy in favor of more stringent enforcement of existing laws. > In contrast, left wing po…

It's a classic rhetorical trick.

"My side favors [nuanced, detailed presentation of my faction's views], while the other side favors [simplistic nonsense presented as the other side's view]."

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#195

Post by angersock »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #184
angersock wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"you may not even have the chance to identify them." And if so, why is that a problem? If you never knew, why would it bother you?

Because if they're specifically hiding their racism in certain contexts they are probably still making harmful actions elsewhere.

Everybody makes harmful actions every week, some minor some not. You should be able to identify them by a pattern of harmful actions.

If you haven't observed their harmful actions or those supposed actions' effects, you're acting irrationally and going on witchhunts.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#196

Post by geofft »

im3w1l wrote: post #58
Dylan16807 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen plenty of people disagree on whether pointers are a good idea. Even better, should pointers be nullable?

You should be able to get through OS design either way. EDIT: addendum. I guess one could imagine a situation where you only needed to have knowledge of feminism 101, but not be required to agree with the arguments. This does not seem to be the case though.

You can get through the class either way, but if you refuse to use pointers, say negative things about them in code reviews, etc., you're eventually going to get everyone frustrated at you. If you can suspend your beliefs enough to use pointers, then you can absolutely get through it, and maybe once you graduate you can figure out how to write a kernel in Python. (I'm not being sarcastic here; there's a python.efi that one hardware vendor is using in production.)

Maybe a better example is monolithic kernels and microkernels. You can believe either opinion, but if you're wading into Linux kernel development now and keep complaining about the lack of microkernel sensibilities, you're going to neither turn Linux into a microkernel nor get people to keep listening to you. If you really, truly believe that Linux's monolithic design is bad for the world, start your own kernel. (Andy Tanenbaum, for instance, had this argument right when Linus Torvalds announced Linux, and since then has been working on MINIX, not showing up on LKML.)

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#197

Post by kelnos »

notdonspaulding wrote: post #159
Dylan16807 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a hard question. Not so much because of anything related to politics, but because I get stuck thinking about actual murders committed by the KKK. If instead you asked about something like a US neo-nazi group I would be much more tolerant of people giving money to a terrible group like that in a way completely unrelated to their job. The reason the situation is tricky, I think, is because jobs with a spokespers…

> because jobs with a spokesperson aspect blend work and personal life. I wonder how many of the people shouting "freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences" vis-a-vis the separation of work and personal life would have held the same viewpoint in defense of the impeachment of Bill Clinton for his affair with Monica Lewinski.

That's actually an interesting point.

The thing that didn't bother me about the Clinton/Lewinski thing is that, in my opinion, having an extramarital affair doesn't necessarily affect your job. But then again, if being viewed as an adulterer means that you can't get your job done properly as President, then that is a problem.

In the case of Eich, I was a bit more torn: being the CEO of an organization that prides itself on its openness and general "social good" means that your social views should match that of the organization. Or at least there shouldn't be any glaring mismatches.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#198

Post by Dylan16807 »

angersock wrote: post #195
Dylan16807 wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because if they're specifically hiding their racism in certain contexts they are probably still making harmful actions elsewhere.

Everybody makes harmful actions every week, some minor some not. You should be able to identify them by a pattern of harmful actions. If you haven't observed their harmful actions or those supposed actions' effects, you're acting irrationally and going on witchhunts .

>You should be able to identify them by a pattern of harmful actions.

Not if they are specifically hiding those actions from people that would recognize them as harmful.

>If you haven't observed their harmful actions or those supposed actions' effects, you're acting irrationally and going on witchhunts.

I don't know why you're making a narrative about witch hunts. The original statement was that it's bad when people keep biases but don't discuss them anywhere they might be corrected. Denouncing hiding is pretty much the opposite of going on a witch hunt.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#199

Post by Dylan16807 »

vezzy-fnord wrote: post #67
Pxtl wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well said. I find the internet social justice movement intensely annoying. They are, to be blunt, assholes. But unfortunately, they're also right more often than not. And dwelling on how disgustingly annoying the online social justice movement is instead of solving its problems is one facet of geek culture that is just somewhat pathetic.

You admit that the "online social justice movement" is dysfunctional, yet you put the onus on so-called "geek culture" to fix their problems for them? Why "geek culture" in particular, and is a notable subset of it already not involved with the former movement?

>onus on so-called "geek culture" to fix their problems for them

What? That comment doesn't say anything even resembling that.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#200

Post by kelnos »

stolio wrote: post #141
lern_too_spel wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding finding a compromise, I'm sure if Eich donated to equal rights after becoming CEO, nobody would have any qualms working for his organization anymore. Even the pitchforks and the most bloodthirsty protesters would likely have gone. That he didn't even try to correct the issue made it more likely that progressive coders would turn away. The depth of the thread seems to have reached a HN limit, so I can't resp…

So he was being publicly shamed and humiliated until he A) was fired B) resigned or C) renounced his personal beliefs? That's horrible. When gay people are treated this way I speak out and say it's wrong. When gay people treat people this way I speak out and say it's wrong. > That he didn't even try to correct the issue made it more likely that progressive coders would turn away. Just because he didn't prostrate hims…

That's horrible. When gay people are treated this way I speak out and say it's wrong. When gay people treat people this way I speak out and say it's wrong.

I think it's a little hard to make this comparison. Eich's position was in favor of taking away the rights of others. I'm fine with people having views I don't agree with, until those views affect others negatively.

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