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Ask HN: Where are the 750k Bitcoins lost by Mt. Gox?

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Re: Ask HN: Where are the 750k Bitcoins lost by Mt. Gox?

#191

Post by zacinbusiness »

dragonwriter wrote: post #109
zacinbusiness wrote: post #35

So if the bitcoins are seized by some government entity....wouldn't that make the total value of bitcoin go up? Supply and demand and all that... Again, I know very, very little about bitcoin or economics in general.

> So if the bitcoins are seized by some government entity....wouldn't that make the total value of bitcoin go up? Supply and demand and all that... You are only considering the supply side and assuming that the government seizing bitcoins from one of the major exchanges (and, subsequently, collapsing the exchange) doesn't impact the perceived viability of the bitcoin ecosystem (since, presumably, the same thing could…

That's something I've always wondered about. When the DEA or seizes, say, a million dollars in cash from a drug dealer...where does it go? I assume the bulk of it goes into the pocket of someone. But where does the officially seized money go? Do they destroy it? Similarly, what would they do with 25,000 BTC? And could they even document it properly?

Re: Ask HN: Where are the 750k Bitcoins lost by Mt. Gox?

#193

Post by Spooky23 »

runeks wrote: post #185
Spooky23 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that case, it's like any other stolen good. If you accept stolen property, you don't hold title to it, whether or not your intentions were honest.

Traditionally, this is not the case with money. The money asset is different from all other assets in this respect. This matter was settled in Scotland over 300 years ago. http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2260952 The result is that even if you can prove that someone else holds a dollar bill that was stolen from you at some point, you do not necessarily have the right to get it back. See also the Wik…

Until Bitcoin is legal tender, it's more like a commodity than money.

Re: Ask HN: Where are the 750k Bitcoins lost by Mt. Gox?

#194

Post by loceng »

maxerickson wrote: post #68
loceng wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the issue. It can become a never-ending wild-goose chase. The thieves can continue to move the funds around until they're no longer tracked, or far enough ahead that from the trackers (assuming there's any enforcement or penalties or laws relating to accepting stolen Bitcoin - which there aren't currently) or just spend them if they're not being tracked or if there's no enforcement in place. The thieves will…

Let's say there are 2 categories of addresses involved with these coins; addresses that have been sufficiently analyzed (so you don't care anymore about tracking them) and addresses that have not been sufficiently analyzed. Following the second category is roughly instantaneous, it's all on the block chain. So in some ways, the chase gets easier over time.

It would be helpful to know the costs of tracking these transactions, and how they may grow or be maintained over time.

Re: Ask HN: Where are the 750k Bitcoins lost by Mt. Gox?

#195

Post by [deleted] »

landryraccoon wrote: post #188
toomuchtodo wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since the blockchain is a consesus of a majority of miners, could we not roll the blockchain back to before Mtgox screwed the pooch?

Nobody who sold anything for bitcoin since before the rollback point would consent to this.

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Where are the 750k Bitcoins lost by Mt. Gox?

#196

Post by alexeisadeski3 »

saraid216 wrote: post #187
ozi wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lol.. you've clearly never been to jail, much less prison.

I'm a middle class male. If 4chan gets pissed off at me, my available recourse involves scouring all data traces I've made across the Internet and then hoping I did it fast enough before the pain train begins. At best, I could post some kind of apology or concession and pray they lose interest. If the government wanted to put me in jail, my available recourse starts with a reasonably well documented legal system inte…

I'd say that the best recourse to a 4chan character assassination is to simply stop using the reddit/facebook/4chan for a week or two.

Re: Ask HN: Where are the 750k Bitcoins lost by Mt. Gox?

#197

Post by Spooky23 »

Bootvis wrote: post #157
Spooky23 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that case, it's like any other stolen good. If you accept stolen property, you don't hold title to it, whether or not your intentions were honest.

I think that would depend on jurisdiction but I don't think reclaiming would be workable in this scenario. Imagine this: I exploit malleability and deposit directly in my BTC-e account, exchange to LTC etc, etc on dozens of exchange and finally to USD. I cash out to cash and disappear. I of course gave my final stop false information. So now my last victim gets a claim, if this last victim happens to be an exchange a…

You're describing money laundering, which scrubs the stolen property of its association with a crime. Its a technique which can obviously be successful, but is a crime in its own right.

Re: Ask HN: Where are the 750k Bitcoins lost by Mt. Gox?

#198

Post by dalke »

Spooky23 wrote: post #193
runeks wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Traditionally, this is not the case with money. The money asset is different from all other assets in this respect. This matter was settled in Scotland over 300 years ago. http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2260952 The result is that even if you can prove that someone else holds a dollar bill that was stolen from you at some point, you do not necessarily have the right to get it back. See also the Wik…

Until Bitcoin is legal tender, it's more like a commodity than money.

"legal tender" is a strange concept. For example, £5, £10, £20 and £50 notes are not legal tender in Scotland. But I don't think most Scottish people consider those notes to be "more like a commodity than money."

Re: Ask HN: Where are the 750k Bitcoins lost by Mt. Gox?

#199

Post by saraid216 »

alexeisadeski3 wrote: post #196
saraid216 wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a middle class male. If 4chan gets pissed off at me, my available recourse involves scouring all data traces I've made across the Internet and then hoping I did it fast enough before the pain train begins. At best, I could post some kind of apology or concession and pray they lose interest. If the government wanted to put me in jail, my available recourse starts with a reasonably well documented legal system inte…

I'd say that the best recourse to a 4chan character assassination is to simply stop using the reddit/facebook/4chan for a week or two.

I think you're imagining that 4chan would stop with my internet presence. That's not historically true.

Re: Ask HN: Where are the 750k Bitcoins lost by Mt. Gox?

#200

Post by Spooky23 »

dalke wrote: post #198
Spooky23 wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until Bitcoin is legal tender, it's more like a commodity than money.

"legal tender" is a strange concept. For example, £5, £10, £20 and £50 notes are not legal tender in Scotland. But I don't think most Scottish people consider those notes to be "more like a commodity than money."

Great. Go steal some Bitcoins and have some fun then.
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