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The Logic of “Stupid” Poor People

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Re: The Logic of “Stupid” Poor People

#191

Post by mcv »

Domenic_S wrote: post #172
emhart wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think when you read my comment you may have been reading it with an eye toward whatever story you have of yourself? I didn't make any wise choices. That one guy, my manager at the Kenneth Cole, made those choices for me. I wanted to get my family gifts instead of getting interview clothes for myself, I would never have even thought to apply to Kenneth Cole, instead I was poached away from a job that paid me so litt…

> I wasn't out there making wise choices You give yourself too little credit. I am not discounting luck -- I too have gotten very lucky in my career -- but without good decisions and hard work luck is wasted. You didn't have to accept the job at KC. You didn't have to go along with your boss' demand to spend the money on wardrobe. You didn't have to do well at that job. These are all things you did that nobody forced…

> without good decisions and hard work luck is wasted

I disagree. Luck can go a long way. Ever heard of Paris Hilton? Do you see hard work and good decisions, or simply a big pile of luck?

Or how about me? I'm a fairly successful programmer, making quite a bit of money as a freelancer right now. But I don't work hard, nor did I really make a lot of hard decisions. I just kinda wound up where I am. I just went with the flow. I'm lucky to be blessed with a good brain for programming, and to be born in an academic family that loved computers. My dad and my older brother are programmers, and I just followed the family trade.

There were plenty of other things that I would have liked to do, but all of them would have required a lot more decision and discipline. This was the easy road for me. I wouldn't even know how to apply for a different kind of job.

The only tough step I ever made, was to switch from being a salaried employee to a freelancer. That was seriously a really big and hard step for me, and one that I messed up quite a bit. But miraculously it all worked out tremendously well.

Re: The Logic of “Stupid” Poor People

#192

Post by rosser »

theorique wrote: post #177
rosser wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your privilege — and lack of awareness thereof — is showing... Re: your edit, it's not the choices that are privilege, but all too often, the opportunity even to make them. As a white male, I have choices, and opportunities to make them, that women and non-white people simply don't . That's privilege: not what you do with the choices you do have, but the choices you have available to you.

Referring to his specific example, however, having children at age 18 is not something that is forced upon all women and/or all non-white people.

Again, you're misunderstanding the nature of privilege. Having the choice of whether or not to have children at — or after — 18 is a privilege. There are parts of the world (arguably, even parts of the US) where young women don't get that choice, whether through (lack of) education, (lack of) access to contraception, forced marriage, or otherwise, those women have had that choice taken from them.

To have the choice is the privilege, not whether or how it's exercised.

Re: The Logic of “Stupid” Poor People

#193

Post by mcv »

Jtsummers wrote: post #72
Qom wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that the colloquial use of the term "average" actually means the median. That's how I have seen it used, anyway.

That's how it's often used. People might say something like, "half the people are below average". But if you ask the same person: What's the average of [4,5,9,10,10]? They'd answer 7.6 (after doing the math). This dual meaning creates confusion, and its why, at least those reporting on things, should clarify whether they mean the mean or the median. Similarly, as the old adage goes, there are lies, damn lies, and sta…

I think a lot of people blindly assume a standard distribution (where medium and average are the same) because that's very often correct.

Re: The Logic of “Stupid” Poor People

#194

Post by mcv »

sanskritabelt wrote: post #152
slg wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Silicon Valley is still somewhat an exception to the rule about appearances. In what other area do the rich people dress exactly like the poorest? Remember the hubbub when Zuckerberg wore a hoodie to a meeting regarding the Facebook IPO. That might be laughed off in Silicon Valley but I know many people in other parts of the country that would view it as insulting for someone to show up to a business meeting wearing…

Dude probably had someone pay a hundred bucks or more for that hoodie tho, it's not the $5 dishrag off the Dollar General racks.

I always have trouble finding nice fleece sweaters. The best, nicest looking ones I know cost €6 at a common low-end shop. I'd have no problem wearing that if I was a billionaire CEO.

Re: The Logic of “Stupid” Poor People

#195

Post by consonants »

beambot wrote: post #109
encoderer wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly true. There are very nice designer handbags for a fraction. Even if you think the $300-500 brands aren't good enough (Coach, Marc, Kate Spade, etc), there are even more in the $800-1200 range (Louis Vuitton, for one..) I know this because I have a wife with tastes for such things :)

Then you should have her check out Lollipuff (YC W13): designer auctions pre-screened by experts for authenticity (ie. eBay without the fakes). It also amazes us. Why would people pay full price when the "lightly used" ones sell for 80% off? *Disclaimer: Am a founder of Lollipuff.

I'd wager it's the same reasoning people buy new cars or new consumer electronics.

Re: The Logic of “Stupid” Poor People

#196

Post by emhart »

Nimi wrote: post #183
emhart wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think when you read my comment you may have been reading it with an eye toward whatever story you have of yourself? I didn't make any wise choices. That one guy, my manager at the Kenneth Cole, made those choices for me. I wanted to get my family gifts instead of getting interview clothes for myself, I would never have even thought to apply to Kenneth Cole, instead I was poached away from a job that paid me so litt…

Your former manager sounds like a very interesting person. Could you elaborate a little about him? What was it that he saw in you?

He was, in fact, an interesting person, and far more so than I ever gave him credit for at the time. I was actually perpetually oblivious to all the things he was trying to do for me until much later.

In my first 2 weeks working he signed me up to have breakfast with him, one other employee, and Kenneth Cole. Like, the actual guy. He put it on the schedule, but didn't see me in advance of it, and I didn't actually look at the schedule (literally didn't know where we kept it yet) so I missed it. He and the other employee showed up to work where I had been standing outside, freezing, wondering where they were and they couldn't believe I had skipped breakfast with Kenneth Cole.

I couldn't believe he had apparently invited me...he used to pull me aside all the time and critique my sales. I have a very hard time with selling things to people so it always rubbed me the wrong way, and I found it especially frustrating because he never seemed to do it to anyone else.

When I finally quit he fought very hard to keep me, and I just couldn't understand why. He was always critiquing me, and I felt like I was terrible at the job. On that last day he showed me the sales numbers for all of our employees, and it turned out I had the 2nd highest sales. I was flabbergasted.

Cleaning out my locker I asked a girl that I didn't know very well what it was all about, why had he been constantly critiquing me if I had such strong sales? She turned to me and said,

"Don't you get it? You were Joe's little star. He was grooming you."

I did NOT get it. Not at all. About a year later I returned, wanting to see Joe and other old friends. I had realized a handful of things.

First, that Joe poaching me at all was a huge leap of faith.

Second, that the "KC Cash" I got was probably as much his doing as that regional manager and he wanted me to be dressed in our clothes to show me off better to the higher ups.

Third, that our store was a season ahead, which was more important than I realized at the time. We were the smaller store on 5th, and we were meant to showcase what would be coming down the line for the next season. Our customers were more unique as a result, and my private client book (customers you shop for, come in on a day off to dress, etc.) had a couple seriously trendy, affluent people in it.

The job, the clothes, the critique, the breakfast I missed with Kenneth Cole, I didn't see any of it at the time, but I can only imagine what a different life I would be living now had I pursued what Joe was putting in front of me.

I'm not at all disappointed at how things have turned out for me, but it's kind of startling to look back on a major turning point that you were completely oblivious too at the time.

For Joe's part, he wasn't there when I went to visit. I've never talked to him again. Fun fact - he was, I believe, a Philippino B-Boy before coming to NY, and the only person I was still friendly with at KC that day I went to visit implied he had returned home.

On the off chance that he comes across this extended series of comments about my time there, someday - let me say that my memory of all of this is over a decade old now, so I may well be getting some of the bits and pieces wrong.

EDIT: I have an inkling of what he saw in me, now, and I think it is all personality and my genuine joy talking with and sharing my expertise with strangers. It was a huge asset at the time, though I didn't realize it, and something I'm learning to make better use of myself now.

Re: The Logic of “Stupid” Poor People

#197

Post by Guest98130 »

ForHackernews wrote: post #174
Guest98130 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I lived with a girl that seemed to make a lot of poor financial choices. I don't agree with the article, but I'm just sharing a story that seems on subject. She had about $300 in her bank account, told me she was broke, and began selling off a few extras around the house. She ran her business from home and the holidays were coming up. I continued to work as usual, and ask what she's up to. Well, she was closing up sh…

Well, your two anecdotes certainly sold me. Clearly, poverty in America is entirely the result of careless people making bad choices.

I think you misread, I mentioned in the first line I was simply sharing a story. None of the people involved were American, and I didn't claim this resulted in poverty or validated the article in any way.

Re: The Logic of “Stupid” Poor People

#198

Post by Jtsummers »

mcv wrote: post #193
Jtsummers wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's how it's often used. People might say something like, "half the people are below average". But if you ask the same person: What's the average of [4,5,9,10,10]? They'd answer 7.6 (after doing the math). This dual meaning creates confusion, and its why, at least those reporting on things, should clarify whether they mean the mean or the median. Similarly, as the old adage goes, there are lies, damn lies, and sta…

I think a lot of people blindly assume a standard distribution (where medium and average are the same) because that's very often correct.

That doesn't absolve those responsible for reporting figures (or misreporting figures) of the responsibility of clarity. Mean and median are often quite distinct, especially in economic and financial figures, and reporting one as the other because it makes the point they're going for is disingenuous.

Another instance of statistics reporting abuse: doing will increase your risk of by . It totally ignores that the original odds were so far against it ever happening that that increase may be double the risk or even 5 times, but it's still 1 in a million odds. Since the typical person has little more than a high school level of mathematics, and probably not a statistical course in that, they're easily thrown off by this sort of reporting.

Re: The Logic of “Stupid” Poor People

#199

Post by brzed »

gaius wrote: post #179
IanDrake wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. Two different things being discussed as one. 1) Everyone should have at least one outfit that is super classy. A cheap solution is a Salvation Army or Goodwill store in a nice part of town. 2) People who live on the dole and buy things they clearly don't need or deserve. Rocking an iPhone 5 while using your food stamp debit card at the grocery store to buy junk food is the typical "Stupid" poor person move m…

Here's a trick: get your measurements, accurately, have someone do it for you with a tape measure. Then scour eBay and be patient. Eventually a suit that was hand-made for someone of your exact dimensions will come up, then you have to grab it. Whatever you pay won't be a fraction even of what it cost originally.

That implies the following: -you have a computer -you have internet -you have an email address -you have any idea what ebay is (no seriously...that's not a reasonable assumption to make) -you have the money to buy THAT suit (oh, and a credit card and a paypal account) -you have somewhere safe to have it shipped -you even understand the lingo of suiting enough to what to look for.

The company I currenlty work for recently hired a technician. The role is something we would call technical today but probably 15 years ago would have been the product of a vocational education. Those programs have been eliminated and pushed on companies to train for instead, companies that usually want experience before they will train. This week, our new guy (24 years old, self supporting, has a kid and a house) sent his first email. Obviously not all of these apply to every situation but the level of abstraction required to understand why this makes no sense to people like us isn't easy for most people.

Re: The Logic of “Stupid” Poor People

#200

Post by itchyouch »

rosser wrote: post #138
lmg643 wrote: post #53

I will agree the value of a put-together appearance is valid, in many contexts. and i wouldn't take from that at all. However ... it's ridiculous to use this to defend a $2,500 handbag purchase. the purchase was inadvisable at best. marshall's, target, JCP etc have a massive business strategy around making sophisticated looks available on a low budget. so there are plenty of ways to accomplish the objective of self r…

Unfortunately, when the very thing you're trying to do is status signaling, it's not how "sophisticated" your outfit looks nearly so much as it is the brands in your outfit. High-end brands signal status by their very high-end-ness. An off-brand, but sophisticated outfit signals far less status than a perhaps less sophisticated, but visibly branded outfit, assuming the "right" brand.

It probably depends on the circles one is attempting to break into, but my selection bias of reading/interacting with the fairly affluent really don't put much stock into brands. In general, the brand-ists I come by, typically are those yet to have "made it" that have nothing better to base their judgements on.
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