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Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

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Re: Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

#191

Post by zenbowman »

kanzure wrote: post #43

Hiring is entirely broken. I don't think anyone is listening to developers. I took some data about this (tracking pixel in a Developer Auction profile), but someone did an even better job than me and posted in these comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5730843 I want a company that treats me with dignity and respect, even before and during the interviewing pipeline. How a company treats people during interv…

The threshold for using "broken" now is the presence of any imperfection in any process, its an abuse of the word. Hiring is imperfect, but its been moving in the right direction.

Most companies ask programmers to come in, solve some problems on the board, and then pay them a generous salary if they succeed at it. How is this in any way "broken"?

A casting couch is an example of "broken" and corrupt hiring, we have nothing of the sort.

Re: Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

#192

Post by zenbowman »

mason55 wrote: post #129
ap22213 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a certain state of the economy, you're right. But, at least here in the US, we currently have way more demand for good developers than we have supply. Basic economics says that your model will not work. For example, the company for which I work bills me out at $250 / hr. I get something like 15-30 job requests from other companies a week. It would not make any economic sense for me to pursue any of these other com…

> But, at least here in the US, we currently have way more demand for good developers than we have supply. Basic economics says that your model will not work. The problem is that hiring someone who can't code doesn't help me. And a bad engineer is worse than no engineer at all. It's not like a grocery store where a bad employee is just really slow and a really bad employee steals things costing me a percent of a perc…

Exactly, I prefer this feet-to-the-fire hiring process that we have now by far to the previous "hire him if he looks and sounds good" which results in far too many bs artists working in the field.

Re: Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

#193

Post by taurath »

archer174 wrote: post #48

Every time I read the word passion in one of these articles I cringe. This has to be the most overused word in silicon valley. It's really just a convenient way to abuse people. Can't work 90 hours? Not passionate enough. Have a family commitment? Where's your passion? Passion. We get it already.

Thanks for this. I've burned out before. I enjoy my work, respect what my company's goals are, and am working to get better at my job and programming in general. I also like having a social life - try to think about how many people from past jobs you are really in contact with?

Re: Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

#194

Post by SethKinast »

kanzure wrote: post #43

Hiring is entirely broken. I don't think anyone is listening to developers. I took some data about this (tracking pixel in a Developer Auction profile), but someone did an even better job than me and posted in these comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5730843 I want a company that treats me with dignity and respect, even before and during the interviewing pipeline. How a company treats people during interv…

My interview at Amazon (where I am currently) fit those requirements.

* It lasted 3 hours, not all day. They suggested business casual dress.

* No trick questions or trivia puzzles. Just coding on whiteboard.

* The interviewers had clearly looked at the work I'd been doing (no one asked "what do you do currently," etc.

* I had an offer, with numbers, about 50 minutes after the interview.

* I countered, they took less than 24 hours to respond and accept.

It was really enjoyable.

Re: Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

#195

Post by kanzure »

WalterBright wrote: post #187
objclxt wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I want a "1-hour guarantee" that I'll receive your considered offer after one hour of interviewing ...I wouldn't have hired many of my fellow engineers after an hour. I would at least want two interviews, one with me (the line manager), and one with my team. To flip it the other way round, I don't think I could get a good enough feel for an employer from a single hour. I'm not sure this works for everyone. I would,…

I don't make major financial decisions in an hour, either, and hiring an engineer is a 6 figure commitment.

You don't have to decide during that interview. You can take your time. Look at the candidates' source code on github, bitbucket, look at their mobile apps, disassemble them, take a look at how well they write software, etc.

Re: Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

#196

Post by kanzure »

zenbowman wrote: post #191
kanzure wrote: post #43

Hiring is entirely broken. I don't think anyone is listening to developers. I took some data about this (tracking pixel in a Developer Auction profile), but someone did an even better job than me and posted in these comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5730843 I want a company that treats me with dignity and respect, even before and during the interviewing pipeline. How a company treats people during interv…

The threshold for using "broken" now is the presence of any imperfection in any process, its an abuse of the word. Hiring is imperfect, but its been moving in the right direction. Most companies ask programmers to come in, solve some problems on the board, and then pay them a generous salary if they succeed at it. How is this in any way "broken"? A casting couch is an example of "broken" and corrupt hiring, we have n…

> Most companies ask programmers to come in, solve some problems on the board, and then pay them a generous salary if they succeed at it. How is this in any way "broken"?

For starters, because those "problems" are usually unrelated to what we actually do.

Re: Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

#197

Post by harryh »

hackinthebochs wrote: post #179
rayiner wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really not. At least at large organizations, it is taken for granted that anyone you hire will pass the bar exam. It doesn't factor into the hiring decision at all.

So I could walk into a Law office and if I talk a good game I'll get hired without having passed the bar? If not, then it is a part of the hiring process, as it is a pre-interview filter.

Yes, if you are set to graduate from a top law firm and have a good GPA you'll get hired before you even take the bar.

Re: Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

#198

Post by peterbotond »

marblar wrote: post #105
reledi wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Each time I sit down to brush up on the details of Prim's algorithm or the exact implementation of quicksort, my eyes glaze over and I start thinking about how I'd much rather be building or tinkering with something. So that's what I end up doing. Nailed it. Another interesting thing I noticed about myself in technical interviews is that I have a lot of trouble doing things that I would have no trouble with if I'm…

Has anybody here ever actually been asked to exactly implement quicksort?

quicksort, shellsort, then implement it for parametric type.

Re: Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

#199

Post by groby_b »

nbroyal wrote: post #16

To properly prepare for these interviews you have to invest quite a bit of time. At this point in my life (late 20s), my time is one of my most valuable resources. So, the last thing I want to do is spend that time effectively preparing for a data structures and algorithms exam. Each time I sit down to brush up on the details of Prim's algorithm or the exact implementation of quicksort, my eyes glaze over and I start…

If the job your interviewing for requires dealing in algorithms, having your eyes glaze over while you look at quicksort means you're not a good fit. (Really. There are plenty of people who enjoy looking at algorithms and their implementation)

Obvious note: Many jobs _don't_ require those skills, they're simply cargo-culting their interview questions.

In both cases, you've learned something valuable about the potential employer.

Re: Always Be Coding – How to Land an Engineering Job

#200

Post by Tloewald »

danenania wrote: post #71
codex wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bootcamp in the Marine Corps is an example of a tough hiring practice. Are your friends and family doctors or lawyers, per chance? Both professions use grueling hiring marathons which are much, much worse than a software engineering interview (residency and the bar exam). All other engineering professions require a rigorous licensing process, whereas software engineering is one of the cushiest jobs on the planet. In…

No one here is objecting to being tested and challenged. People just want to be tested on how well they can actually perform the job and build solid products, not how well they can memorize algorithm implementations. It's like screening Marines based on whether they can build a rifle by hand. It's a cool skill and could be useful in some ways, but it's not the job.

Hiring is a two way process. They're looking for employees, and you're looking for a salary, colleagues, boss, etc. A company that fucks up an interview fails.

My toughest interview process involved driving 200 miles to spend a day doing psychological tests (after my interview). I got the job. Really, the hirer failed the interview, but I wanted out of my current job. Whose fault was that? Turned out to be a great job (my boss told me that he looked at my portfolio and CV and simply said "hire that guy" — the process was hoop jumping.

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