NY official: Airbnb stay illegal; host fined $2,400 • Hacker News Board

Re: NY official: Airbnb stay illegal; host fined $2,400

#191

Post by fragsworth » Tue, May 21, 2013, 6:26 PM UTC

cletus wrote: post #62

I've had this argument with several people. Their position is that "it's my house/apartment, I should be able to do what I want with it" (even when renting they use this argument). My argument is that this is not and has never been true. You can't, for example, run a tannery in your apartment. What's more, as a resident (and especially if I were an owner) I wouldn't want my building being a de facto hotel. An endless…

> What's more, as a resident (and especially if I were an owner) I wouldn't want my building being a de facto hotel. An endless stream of people coming and going, having building keys and so on.

I can understand your desire to have things this way, but as an individual, I see no reason why you would want to force this rule on everyone in your city. If you don't want your neighbors renting their place out, go live in an apartment complex that doesn't allow tenants to do this. If you don't want your tenants doing this, then make it against the terms of your rental agreement.

What business licensing really does is foster a kind of local monopoly, often as a favor to the existing businesses. It's anti-competitive, by making it very difficult to start a business. Most people are completely unaware of these very real motives behind local licensing laws.

Re: NY official: Airbnb stay illegal; host fined $2,400

#192

Post by tomkarlo » Tue, May 21, 2013, 6:30 PM UTC

anxx wrote: post #147

rwhitman wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it has a lot to do with residential rental inventory as well. Rent control. There is such limited available apartment rental inventory that to take units off the market, carve them up and sell them as hotel stays completely skews the real estate market and drives up the rent. If every landlord did that no one would have a place to live

I kind of find myself being more sympathetic to landlords in this case. Yes, if everyone did that there wouldn't be any space to live, but looking for short-term subleasers is also a lot more risky. They need to be found, first of all - you're competing with every other of their residence choices - and after that, they have a greater risk of damaging your property. But if after this pro/con analysis, it is economical…

Disclosure only works when the customer has a real ability to assess the risk they're accepting. Most folks aren't even aware of the fire codes for hotels versus residences, or why they exist. (In particular, the extra danger in fleeing a fire in an unfamiliar building.) Once you have money changing hands, it's a business, and isn't comparable to having houseguests over for the night - the motives are profit-based.

Re: NY official: Airbnb stay illegal; host fined $2,400

#193

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, May 21, 2013, 6:30 PM UTC

baddox wrote: post #109

cletus wrote: post #62

I've had this argument with several people. Their position is that "it's my house/apartment, I should be able to do what I want with it" (even when renting they use this argument). My argument is that this is not and has never been true. You can't, for example, run a tannery in your apartment. What's more, as a resident (and especially if I were an owner) I wouldn't want my building being a de facto hotel. An endless…

> You can't, for example, run a tannery in your apartment. I would prefer that you could, in the (perhaps unlikely) scenario that it was allowed by the terms of your rental agreement. If it's your own property, go right ahead. > What's more, as a resident (and especially if I were an owner) I wouldn't want my building being a de facto hotel. Many residents would probably agree, and if enough agree, then there's no re…

> I live in San Francisco, where airbnb is legal (as far as I know)

Its generally not (its illegal in San Francisco to rent a unit for less than thirty days in a residential building with more than four units.) New York and San Francisco are the two US locations that I've seen the most news coverage for AirBnB's legal issues in.

> yet my property owner explicitly prohibits "short term subleasing," effectively banning airbnb rentals. No law or government action required, no criminals made, no taxpayer-funded enforcement, and no problem.

All contracts, and especially lease agreements where the ultimate enforcement action is eviction, depend very much on law, government action, and taxpayer-funded enforcement action.

Re: NY official: Airbnb stay illegal; host fined $2,400

#194

Post by HarryHirsch » Tue, May 21, 2013, 6:32 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #173

nathanstitt wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You cannot be serious. Just because you happen to own the property does not give you absolute rights. What you are arguing against is called zoning and the legality of that is very well settled. The tannery example is pretty apt here - what right do you have to run a foul smelling eyesore right beside the property where I'm attempting to raise a family?

> what right do you have to run a foul smelling eyesore right beside the property where I'm attempting to raise a family? He has every right to do this. Why do you assume that your family is more important than his tannery? The regulations against things like tannery in an apartment are only there so that you can, when e.g. choosing a place to raise your family, find a place that will suit your requirements. It's lik…

You could argue that this question has been discussed before, and that that is the reason why there are laws against noxious businesses in populated areas. If you want to operate that tannery of yours you had better have a good case and make it.

If it's just your right against theirs, that is the short path to "direct action", and you cannot have that in a civilized society.

You could also argue that you have the right to operate that tannery of yours but choose not to exercise it out of consideration of the people who will suffer from the stench. That would be the aristocratic viewpoint, argued eloquently by Ernst Jünger in the "Ledge at Masirah".

Either way, there is such a thing of society, and anyone arguing cleanly has to take that into account.

Re: NY official: Airbnb stay illegal; host fined $2,400

#195

Post by tomkarlo » Tue, May 21, 2013, 6:33 PM UTC

gknoy wrote: post #174

tomkarlo wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fine, but it's unproven that the AirBnB market works at all if renters have to pay 20%+ hotel taxes and apartment owners have to pay income tax. It would both raise the effective rates and greatly decrease the received benefit to the seller -- there might not be a clearing market any more. I'd consider renting my spare room for $100 a night, but not for $40.

I'm pretty sure that the hosts still have to pay income tax, if they are getting paid money for having someone stay in their house.

They're supposed to. How many do you think actually are?

Re: NY official: Airbnb stay illegal; host fined $2,400

#196

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, May 21, 2013, 6:33 PM UTC

washedup wrote: post #98

rayiner wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Short term rentals and hotels have existed since time immemorial, and the laws were created in response to those services. The fact that AirBnB now allows advertising that service over the internet instead of a classified is neither here nor there.

It's actually very important. AirBNB opens up a renting forum to the world, which creates a bigger population of users, creating a bigger pool of reviews, which leads to legitimacy. Let the people decide which places are worthy of staying at. A (print) classified rarely reaches outside the local region. Not only that, but the pool of renters or owners will grow because they see AirBnB as a easy resource to advertise…

> It's actually very important. AirBNB opens up a renting forum to the world, which creates a bigger population of users

This magnifies the scope of the potential problem with arm-length short-term rentals of people unfamiliar with the property and its circumstances which laws restricting such rentals were meant to address; if anything it magnifies rather than reduces the need for the regulations.

Re: NY official: Airbnb stay illegal; host fined $2,400

#197

Post by tomkarlo » Tue, May 21, 2013, 6:36 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #129

sliverstorm wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, AirBnB basically seems to be an exercise in converting externalities into profit.

Much of what we consider to be profitable, high-growth business is about taking advantage of market failures. E.g. the advertising industry that bankrolls the internet is basically about taking advantage of cognitive biases to get people to make irrational purchasing decisions. Part of the success of e-commerce is due to the heroic efforts of UPS, etc, in reducing the cost of shipping over the years to make e-tailing…

Converting externalities into profit isn't necessarily taking advantage of market failures. It may just be _creating_ market failure and taking advantage of them.

Let's say all of the restaurants in your neighborhood have to charge extra because of the cost of commercial garbage service. And you start selling food cheaper, because you're putting your garbage into the household trash and passing on the savings. Yes, that's a business, but it's basically just breaking the rules and passing some of the savings on to customers.

Re: NY official: Airbnb stay illegal; host fined $2,400

#198

Post by FelixP » Tue, May 21, 2013, 6:37 PM UTC

fragsworth wrote: post #191

cletus wrote: post #62

I've had this argument with several people. Their position is that "it's my house/apartment, I should be able to do what I want with it" (even when renting they use this argument). My argument is that this is not and has never been true. You can't, for example, run a tannery in your apartment. What's more, as a resident (and especially if I were an owner) I wouldn't want my building being a de facto hotel. An endless…

> What's more, as a resident (and especially if I were an owner) I wouldn't want my building being a de facto hotel. An endless stream of people coming and going, having building keys and so on. I can understand your desire to have things this way, but as an individual, I see no reason why you would want to force this rule on everyone in your city. If you don't want your neighbors renting their place out, go live in…

> If you don't want your tenants doing this, then make it against the terms of your rental agreement.

It's actually a violation of most standard residential rental agreements; sub-tenancy is often tightly controlled and only permitted with the express permission of the landlord.

Source: my family owns apartment buildings in several different cities.

Re: NY official: Airbnb stay illegal; host fined $2,400

#199

Post by FelixP » Tue, May 21, 2013, 6:42 PM UTC

oijaf888 wrote: post #176

JohnTHaller wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every lease I've seen of my group of friends prohibits subletting without express permission of the landlord/owner. It's already the standard in NYC. Realistically, every AirBNB within a rental unit in NYC is likely violating the terms of their lease.

It might say that but is that an actual enforceable provision?

Yes, absolutely. My family has evicted tenants from some of our units for repeatedly violating this clause of their leases.

Re: NY official: Airbnb stay illegal; host fined $2,400

#200

Post by bcgraham » Tue, May 21, 2013, 6:43 PM UTC

fragsworth wrote: post #191

cletus wrote: post #62

I've had this argument with several people. Their position is that "it's my house/apartment, I should be able to do what I want with it" (even when renting they use this argument). My argument is that this is not and has never been true. You can't, for example, run a tannery in your apartment. What's more, as a resident (and especially if I were an owner) I wouldn't want my building being a de facto hotel. An endless…

> What's more, as a resident (and especially if I were an owner) I wouldn't want my building being a de facto hotel. An endless stream of people coming and going, having building keys and so on. I can understand your desire to have things this way, but as an individual, I see no reason why you would want to force this rule on everyone in your city. If you don't want your neighbors renting their place out, go live in…

It probably is against the rental agreements for most of the people doing it.