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America's Real Criminal Element: Lead

motherjones.com

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Re: America's Real Criminal Element: Lead

#191
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know blog/people to follow leaning right that value also intellectual integrity? I noticed it is possible to find left of liberal media that includes facts references. But most of the right media at some point use the "market is right" or "less gouvernement is good" without arguments or sources and I find it quite annoying. So if you know smart right media in English or French please give the references.

Becker-Posner Blog: http://www.becker-posner-blog.com/ David (son of Milton) Friedman: http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/

thanks, subscribed in google reader

Re: America's Real Criminal Element: Lead

#192
post #188
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Becker-Posner Blog: http://www.becker-posner-blog.com/ David (son of Milton) Friedman: http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/

Here's a short list I'd add: Tyler Cowen, Scott Sumner, Reihan Salam, Will Wilkinson, Conor Friesendorf. Picking just one conservative I'd choose Cowen without blinking because he's a volume blogger with a wide net so you'll often get the best of right leaning commentary on the subjects he's interested in.

thanks, subscribed in google reader for the first 2 for the others I couldn't find RSS feed :(

Re: America's Real Criminal Element: Lead

#193
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Remember, what we call "government" is really just a bunch of people that society recognizes as the sole legitimate purveyors of violence—that's the only difference. Wrong. They are a group of people acting within a common framework of rules. These rules constrain their behavior, especially violent behavior. Part of this framework works to ensure no one person, small group or even large sub-group can act independent…

I would argue that your characterization of government is the promise of utopia that critics of anarchy (I use that term very broadly to simply mean lack of a state) always claim the anarchists are proposing. It is simply not reflected in reality. A document empirically does not have authority over government, and voting is not a realistic way to keep government accountable to the people. An individual simply has no…

>A document empirically does not have authority over government

No, but people agreeing to the tenants of the document do. This would be no different in your proposal only there will be exponentially more documents (agreements) to keep track of.

> and voting is not a realistic way to keep government accountable to the people.

Voting is not the only way to keep government accountable (legal action being another -- revolution or threat of revolution being yet another, civil disobedience etc, etc.), but as far as a basic way to make sure government will reflects the governed's will, voting does a decent job. The evidence for this is that more extreme and direct action is relatively rare...at least in the West.

>An individual simply has no recourse to everyday government injustices (like taxation or prosecution for drug possession).

Taxation is an injustice? How so? I don't find it to be unjust. I get a lot of value, personally, from the taxes I pay. And drug possession? I personally don't feel that drugs should be considered contraband but many people have. Those laws are changing, however, through voting no less, as public opinion shifts.

>If you insist that government represents the people, fine, but it's still tyranny of the majority/plurality.

I live in the United States. It is a Republic. This means that while most laws flow from the majority and everyone must live under those laws the rights of minorities are protected. Thus tyranny is held in check. Also, minority and majority are fluid terms. They are not so much tied to an individual as a gross bloc, but to individual opinions held by those individuals regarding the laws, rules and regulations under consideration. The same person will find themselves in the majority on some issues and the minority in others. In short, individuals often don't find their will wholly repressed by the rules of the majority. Also, the rules tend to be slow to change and cannot be applied arbitrarily. This is opposed to a tyranny where the rule is absolute, arbitrarily applied and make no room for unassailable rights.

Re: America's Real Criminal Element: Lead

#194
Did I miss something? The New Orleans maps show soil lead levels and income levels. Even if these maps were to show correlation (it's not clear they do), and even if they suggested causation (which is anything but clear), we would need to see a crime rate map to even get at the question the article deals with. The maps are pretty. What are they meant to show?

Re: America's Real Criminal Element: Lead

#195

I think many of the commenters here didn't see that there is a 2nd page of this article ( http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/01/lead-crime-li... ) The first paragraph of that second page reads: "If econometric studies were all there were to the story of lead, you'd be justified in remaining skeptical no matter how good the statistics look. Even when researchers do their best—controlling for economic growth,…

No, we don't see causation at the neurological level. The "correlation ≠ causation" meme doesn't just undermine overspeculative econometric conclusions: it undermines overspeculative biological conclusions too. The article may show correlations at the econometric level (I'm not convinced). It reports correlations at the medical level. But correlation still ≠ causation, and so it's not clear that lead causes crime "neurologically". Indeed it's not clear that any single factor trumps the human element in committing crime. At some level, crime is always a human choice. That's why we call it "crime." The overall fallacy of the article, therefore, is that statistical analysis—with its weak ability to establish causation—can shed more light on crime than human factors can, when crime is clearly a highly complex, volitional, and "human" behavior that resists analysis of any kind.

Re: America's Real Criminal Element: Lead

#196
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that your characterization of government is the promise of utopia that critics of anarchy (I use that term very broadly to simply mean lack of a state) always claim the anarchists are proposing. It is simply not reflected in reality. A document empirically does not have authority over government, and voting is not a realistic way to keep government accountable to the people. An individual simply has no…

>A document empirically does not have authority over government No, but people agreeing to the tenants of the document do. This would be no different in your proposal only there will be exponentially more documents (agreements) to keep track of. > and voting is not a realistic way to keep government accountable to the people. Voting is not the only way to keep government accountable (legal action being another -- rev…

> Taxation is an injustice? How so? I don't find it to be unjust. I get a lot of value, personally, from the taxes I pay.

Then pay the government voluntarily. I would have no problem with that. The problem is with taking people money when they aren't okay with it. I consider threatening someone with violence unless they pay you money to be unjust, which I don't think is that bizarre of an opinion.

> I personally don't feel that drugs should be considered contraband but many people have.

The error you're making is trying to represent government action as something voluntary or up to personal opinion. Just like with taxation, you say that you don't consider drugs contraband, but many people do. That would be fine if it was left at that. The problem is that the group people who do consider drugs to be contraband have implemented a vast organized system of violence against the other group. I don't have a problem with the difference in opinion. The problem is with the violence.

> I live in the United States. It is a Republic. This means that while most laws flow from the majority and everyone must live under those laws the rights of minorities are protected. Thus tyranny is held in check.

Did you go to public schools in the USA? I did, and I was repeatedly taught that as well. Later, when I actually looked into it myself, I realized it's simply not true. The USA government was founded in an attempt to create one of the smallest centralized governments in history, and in a relatively short period of time it has grown into one of the largest centralized governments in history. Just because a legal document, your school, and you yourself say that rights are protected doesn't mean they are.

> The same person will find themselves in the majority on some issues and the minority in others. In short, individuals often don't find their will wholly repressed by the rules of the majority.

Sure, no one is "wholly repressed," but that's a pretty low bar. I would prefer that no one be violently oppressed by the majority at all.

> This is opposed to a tyranny where the rule is absolute, arbitrarily applied and make no room for unassailable rights.

Have you followed the legislation, ongoing attempted legislation, and executive action regarding the "war on terror" in the past decade or so? American citizens have been assassinated in drone strikes without any pretense of legality. Alleged criminals or "terrorists" have been tortured and detained indefinitely without being charged. Prominent political leaders have explicitly said that the rule of law does not apply to people who are considered by the government to be a threat to the government.

Re: America's Real Criminal Element: Lead

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One also needs to show that it is not because both X and Y are caused by some reason Z which influences both even though X and Y are completely independent from each other How do you show that something is not caused by a hidden Z? All one can hope for is a preponderance of evidence. If the following passage from the article is true, then the preponderance here is stronger than a generic correlation-is-not-causation…

> How do you show that something is not caused by a hidden Z? By doing a controled study. Of course, in this case, we're better not knowing than paying that kind of cost.

> Of course, in this case, we're better not knowing than paying that kind of cost.

How could the entire population ever be better off 'not knowing'? If there was a button to exchange a few babies or animals lives for the possible outcomes presented at the end of the article, I would do it in a heartbeat.

Re: America's Real Criminal Element: Lead

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't read any of the studies it talks about. I think the evidence for lead causing brain damage is very strong. Its effect on the crime rate is a different story. Admittedly it says it holds up over multiple countries, which seems like it should be stronger evidence. Honestly I don't know, but I do think there is a real problem in our understanding of how to interpret population level trends. The rigorous camp s…

I have two out of the air guesses on how brain damage might cause crime. First, part of your brain responsible for empathy might not work right. Second, if you're dumb you have a harder time holding down a job, so might be more likely to resort to crime. I throw these out only to play with ideas, not to imply I have any evidence they are correct, or that brain-damage even does cause crime increase.

From the article:

> A second study [23] found that high exposure to lead during childhood was linked to a permanent loss of gray matter in the prefrontal cortex—a part of the brain associated with aggression control as well as what psychologists call "executive functions": emotional regulation, impulse control, attention, verbal reasoning, and mental flexibility.

Re: America's Real Criminal Element: Lead

#199
post #189
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire premise of libertarianism rests on the notion that the world will stay still long enough for market forces to weed out the baddies. Government can sometimes be the better solution because regulations can respond much more quickly to baddies (e.g., I can inspect the restaurant within a week of its opening, or we can wait 6-12 months for enough people to get sick and for the restaurant to develop a bad reput…

The false assumption a lot of critics to libertarianism (or nearly any political philosophy) routinely make is that libertarians believe their proposed system would be a utopia with no violence, no "baddies," no market inefficiencies or market failures, etc. Granted, some libertarians who aren't really educated in the political philosophy probably do claim that. But I don't. I certainly don't think that a pure free m…

Libertarians often claim that laissez-faire will always do better than intervention. From the above, it should be relatively obvious that depending on the government and depending on how non-stationary the economy is, laissez-faire could work either quite well or exceptionally poorly.

It's the possibility that laissez-faire could do a much worse job than regulations that libertarians refuse to accept.

Re: America's Real Criminal Element: Lead

#200
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A document empirically does not have authority over government No, but people agreeing to the tenants of the document do. This would be no different in your proposal only there will be exponentially more documents (agreements) to keep track of. > and voting is not a realistic way to keep government accountable to the people. Voting is not the only way to keep government accountable (legal action being another -- rev…

> Taxation is an injustice? How so? I don't find it to be unjust. I get a lot of value, personally, from the taxes I pay. Then pay the government voluntarily. I would have no problem with that. The problem is with taking people money when they aren't okay with it. I consider threatening someone with violence unless they pay you money to be unjust, which I don't think is that bizarre of an opinion. > I personally don'…

>The problem is with taking people money when they aren't okay with it.

Ok. Then would you keep the non-payers from enjoying the benefit of the infrastructure put into place by the payers?

> I consider threatening someone with violence unless they pay you money to be unjust, which I don't think is that bizarre of an opinion.

It is bizarre because it rarely comes to that. The threat of violence is quite a few well understood steps down in the process. What you propose is to replace those well understood steps to violent action with an overlapping, ever changing patchwork of rules. And wishing for violence to simply not exist is not an option.

>I would prefer that no one be violently oppressed by the majority at all.

Violence exists. It will always exist as long as people are mortal or can feel pain. The trick is controlling and limiting it's use. What you propose is replacing the potential of violent action by rules laid out by the majority by rules created by any individual or group that cares to fashion them and with the resources to carry them out against anybody or group that cannot muster a reprisal great enough to make the cost outweigh the benefits to the violently acting group.

>Just because a legal document, your school, and you yourself say that rights are protected doesn't mean they are. >Have you followed the legislation, ongoing attempted legislation, and executive action regarding the "war on terror" in the past decade or so? American citizens have been assassinated in drone strikes without any pretense of legality. Alleged criminals or "terrorists" have been tortured and detained indefinitely without being charged. Prominent political leaders have explicitly said that the rule of law does not apply to people who are considered by the government to be a threat to the government.

These things stand out because they are not the normal course of business.

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