Live data from Hacker News

America's Real Criminal Element: Lead

motherjones.com

141–150 of 201 posts

Re: America's Real Criminal Element: Lead

#141
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Of course not. It was already false, long before I declared it so. Show me how it is false. I am a very reasonable person who is prone to change his mind when presented with a solid argument. I am inviting you to make that argument.

How can I prove it, and why should the burden of proof be on me? The statement was that litigation cannot exist with government. I certainly think the burden of proof is on the personal claiming that something "cannot exist."

The statement was that litigation cannot exist with government. I certainly think the burden of proof is on the personal claiming that something "cannot exist."

You are the one claiming that litigation can exist without government. Litigation has never, in all of recorded history thus far, existed without the backing of government. Thus, the burden of proof is on you.

Re: America's Real Criminal Element: Lead

#142
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is to keep someone from killing me to get their way? Private insurance? Are they going to go to war for me after I'm dead? Yes, that's the idea, although "going to war" is hyperbolic. Private insurance would be strongly incentivized to seek out and punish murderers, assuming of course that potential customers would find that service valuable. The leap from the government's monopoly on violence to a competitive…

> In fact, violence can be very profitable. It can be, sure, but it's extremely expensive and extremely risky. That was my point. Violence is only risky because government makes it risky to commit violence. Reality does not bear out your claims that turning everything over to private parties would magically solve the violence problem. In fact, places like Somalia and every conflict in Africa and the Middle East are s…

> Violence is only risky because government makes it risky to commit violence.

Not true. Government law enforcement obviously contributes, but the tendency for people to defend themselves (and for third parties to intervene against perceived injustice) is the primary source of risk.

> In fact, places like Somalia and every conflict in Africa and the Middle East are strong evidence that violence would increase tenfold without a strong government.

I'm glad someone finally mentioned Somalia. Unfortunately, your beliefs are incorrect, and are in fact the opposite of the truth. See http://rkba.org/libertarian/maccallum/MacCallum-Somalia98.ht... and http://www.peterleeson.com/Better_Off_Stateless.pdf .

Re: America's Real Criminal Element: Lead

#143
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, for starters to prove casuation one doesn't only need to show X moves in sync with Y. One also needs to show that it is not because both X and Y are caused by some reason Z which influences both even though X and Y are completely independent from each other. E.g. correlation between good lead data and good crime data may be caused by the fact that in cities with better law enforcement both criminal laws and env…

One also needs to show that it is not because both X and Y are caused by some reason Z which influences both even though X and Y are completely independent from each other How do you show that something is not caused by a hidden Z? All one can hope for is a preponderance of evidence. If the following passage from the article is true, then the preponderance here is stronger than a generic correlation-is-not-causation…

Well, a good first step would be to analyse possible causes of Z and show they are not matching it. Quoting Feynman:

For example, if you're doing an experiment, you should report everything that you think might make it invalid — not only what you think is right about it; other causes that could possibly explain your results; and things you thought of that you've eliminated by some other experiment, and how they worked — to make sure the other fellow can tell they have been eliminated.

I did not see such explanation done in this case - it looks like everything described talks about what matches the hypothesis, and no effort is done to look for alternative explanations and refute them.

>>>> Thus your hidden Z would have to move in sync not only with X and Y, but also with their widely varying rates in different states.

Use of gasoline is highly correlated with use of cars, which again is highly correlated with income, population density, business activity, etc. Any of which can be also associated with crime. I.e. if both effects are caused, say, by population density (I do not say it is, I just take it as an example), then gasoline use would raise and crime would raise when population density raises (say, because some economic factors attract people, like it happens now in North Dakota due to shale gas boom) and both would fall when some factors cause population to move away - as it happening in Detroit, for example. There might be also other factors.

>>> In fact, use of leaded gasoline varied widely among states, and this gave Reyes the opening she needed. If childhood lead exposure really did produce criminal behavior in adults, you'd expect that in states where consumption of leaded gasoline declined slowly, crime would decline slowly too. Conversely, in states where it declined quickly, crime would decline quickly. And that's exactly what she found.

And this is exactly what she would find if both were strongly related to some third cause Z, but completely causally independent from each other. The fact that the MJ author takes it as evidence confirming the causation means they do not understand how causation needs to be proven. It is not evidence for causation, since it equally applies to both when causation exists and when it does not.

Yes, this means causation is hard to prove. It is.

Re: America's Real Criminal Element: Lead

#144
post #119
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, for starters to prove casuation one doesn't only need to show X moves in sync with Y. One also needs to show that it is not because both X and Y are caused by some reason Z which influences both even though X and Y are completely independent from each other. E.g. correlation between good lead data and good crime data may be caused by the fact that in cities with better law enforcement both criminal laws and env…

How lead is chemically similar to calcium? They are on opposite... Then you go on to explain how lead is like calcium in its bioavailability, so in relation to the operations of a human body, lead is chemically similar to calcium (only dangerous). http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/126/1/5.full For example, lead’s ability to pass through the blood–brain barrier (BBB) is due in large part to its ability to substi…

"Ability to replace calcium in certain biochemical processes" is not nearly the same as "chemically similar to calcium". It's like saying if I stole your login for facebook I would look like you and nobody would be able to distinguish between us without DNA test. Completely different things. Biochemical processes are known for accepting a lot of substitutes, that's how a lot of drugs work. That does not mean all those are chemically similar in general - they just play similar roles in certain processes.

Re: America's Real Criminal Element: Lead

#145
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, because "Libertarians" (improperly capitalized) are the only people who express their ideas to other people. Good point.

> because libertarians are the only people who express their ideas to other people. Express them like this? yeah. Well, libertarians and Jehovah's witnesses.

> Express them like this?

On Hacker News comments? What in the world are you going on about?

Re: America's Real Criminal Element: Lead

#146
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One also needs to show that it is not because both X and Y are caused by some reason Z which influences both even though X and Y are completely independent from each other How do you show that something is not caused by a hidden Z? All one can hope for is a preponderance of evidence. If the following passage from the article is true, then the preponderance here is stronger than a generic correlation-is-not-causation…

Well, a good first step would be to analyse possible causes of Z and show they are not matching it. Quoting Feynman: For example, if you're doing an experiment, you should report everything that you think might make it invalid — not only what you think is right about it; other causes that could possibly explain your results; and things you thought of that you've eliminated by some other experiment, and how they worke…

I don't see you addressing what I find to be the most important point, though I realize now that I didn't emphasize it enough. If we know that leaded gas was phased out at different rates because legislators mandated different schedules in different states (I say "if" — I don't know if that's true), then any hidden cause Z would have had to produce not only X (decline of lead at a certain rate) and Y (decline of crime at a similar rate) but also the legislation which caused X in the first place. Many plausible Z's become absurd if that is the case. To use your example, population density might conceivably determine both gas consumption and crime, but surely not the behavior of state legislatures implementing federal mandates. I find it hard to imagine history getting closer to a controlled experiment than that.

Does that mean that causation is proved? Of course not. But it does mean that the evidence here is stronger than garden-variety correlation.

Re: America's Real Criminal Element: Lead

#147
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, for starters to prove casuation one doesn't only need to show X moves in sync with Y. One also needs to show that it is not because both X and Y are caused by some reason Z which influences both even though X and Y are completely independent from each other. E.g. correlation between good lead data and good crime data may be caused by the fact that in cities with better law enforcement both criminal laws and env…

One also needs to show that it is not because both X and Y are caused by some reason Z which influences both even though X and Y are completely independent from each other How do you show that something is not caused by a hidden Z? All one can hope for is a preponderance of evidence. If the following passage from the article is true, then the preponderance here is stronger than a generic correlation-is-not-causation…

> How do you show that something is not caused by a hidden Z?

By doing a controled study.

Of course, in this case, we're better not knowing than paying that kind of cost.

Re: America's Real Criminal Element: Lead

#148
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What can anything do for you if you are killed? I don't understand the relevance. What is to keep someone from killing me to get their way? Private insurance? Are they going to go to war for me after I'm dead? >What if you can't afford the fees associated with litigation in the government court system? Well, if the conflict 'resolution' involves the other party resorting to violence or theft, I can turn the matter o…

> What is to keep someone from killing me to get their way? Private insurance? Are they going to go to war for me after I'm dead? Yes, that's the idea, although "going to war" is hyperbolic. Private insurance would be strongly incentivized to seek out and punish murderers, assuming of course that potential customers would find that service valuable. The leap from the government's monopoly on violence to a competitive…

>I don't mean the cost of weaponry. I mean that you have to pay thugs well, mostly because of the inherent risk I mentioned earlier. There is also risk of massive retaliation which can end up causing a lot of damage to humans and property.

If that were true people wouldn't be killed over pocket change today.

It seems to me that your position is only maintainable if you take many questionable assumptions as a given -- here are a couple:

-People are rational actors. -People will operate in an environment with good enough information available to make good decisions. (This would be tough to begin with but with overlapping rules in place this could really be a crippling burden in your purely market driven world.)

Keeping just those two assumptions intact seems...improbable.

Re: America's Real Criminal Element: Lead

#149
post #14

I view the drop in crime as the result of a perfect storm of many factors, and perhaps this is another one. The explosion of media and the Internet occurred around the same time, so it's hard to say what caused it.

I think that's where "they" would point to the "distribution" evidence, that shows varying rates of the same correlation geographically. If we go on that, then you'd have to find another event that occurred at similar rates in similar geographic areas. Now, if only there were medical indications that lead causes violent behavior... the article only points to IQ issues, though there is likely more evidence elsewhere.

> If we go on that, then you'd have to find another event that occurred at similar rates in similar geographic areas.

There are lots of events that correlate with income (thus, with the geographical distribution). And lots of them correlate with the fall or raise of crime in the article.

Getting an event that correlate with both raise and fall of crime, like lead intoxication does, will be harder. But I doubt it's impossible.

The thing is, we have a causal nexus, we have the correlation, but we have no idea how strong the nexus actualy is, so we can't conclude the correlation is caused by the nexus. And we won't discover, because we won't conduct the kind of experiments needed for it.

Re: America's Real Criminal Element: Lead

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm tempted to repeat the oft said correlation is not causation I's be interested in seeing what you think on that score after reading TFA and possibly even the studies that it talks about.

I haven't read any of the studies it talks about. I think the evidence for lead causing brain damage is very strong. Its effect on the crime rate is a different story. Admittedly it says it holds up over multiple countries, which seems like it should be stronger evidence. Honestly I don't know, but I do think there is a real problem in our understanding of how to interpret population level trends. The rigorous camp s…

I have two out of the air guesses on how brain damage might cause crime. First, part of your brain responsible for empathy might not work right. Second, if you're dumb you have a harder time holding down a job, so might be more likely to resort to crime. I throw these out only to play with ideas, not to imply I have any evidence they are correct, or that brain-damage even does cause crime increase.
Post reply on HN