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Private German rocket makes history, reaches orbit from European soil

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Re: Private German rocket makes history, reaches orbit from European soil

#191

Post by lkey »

talon8635 wrote: post #121
godwinson__4-8 wrote: post #103

A good historical nugget is that the Americans got a huge leg up in the space race by importing the Germans who worked on the V-2 program. Germans killed Soviets by the millions. If you were a German of value (like a rocket scientist) you were eager to surrender to the Americans before the Soviets could get their hands on you. If you were the Americans, you distrusted the Soviets already, so it was a win-win. https:/…

For any unfamiliar with the history, Russia was a mass murdering machine in this era, vaporizing tens of millions of people, including Russians, in very short spans of time without even a second thought. We all know Germans was. And some people would fling fecal allegations that “so was the US!”. No. German and Russian actions were categorically different than wartime casualties (even brutal, possibly criminal, warti…

You're right, America didn't intentionally engineer the death of millions until after the war, when it became the undisputed global superpower.

...If you choose to intentionally ignore slavery in the American South, Convict Leasing, and Jim Crow.

see also what the CIA got up to in Indonesia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_mass_killings_of_19...

And in your living memory: Vietnam, Korea, the vile shit we did to Haiti and Chile, the 'Banana Republics', Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, unconditionally supporting Israel and the Gulf States various war crimes and genocides, etc...

And of course, most recently, the sudden and complete excision of life-saving aid to children in Africa, leaving the world's most vulnerable to starve.

And also the total embargo on Cuba, to ensure starvation, with the intention of conquest, resource extraction, and collective punishment.

but God forbid someone on a message board tarnish the US's sterling reputation (relative to some of history's worst) during WWII.

Re: Private German rocket makes history, reaches orbit from European soil

#192

Post by cccbbbaaa »

orphereus wrote: post #189
cccbbbaaa wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a sovereignty perspective, does a launch from continental Europe actually matter when Arianespace/CNES/ESA has been launching from France for decades?

Doesn't it matter if this part of France is an ocean away?

I do not think so, but anyway, it is definitely not a proof that we are further decoupling ourselves from the US, which is the claim made in the root comment. France has launched rockets from France for decades. Being an ocean away does not make Kourou reliant on the US.

Re: Private German rocket makes history, reaches orbit from European soil

#193

Post by iJohnDoe »

erkt wrote: post #179
Danox wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They got a leg up and still the Russians with Sputnik got into space first, on top of splitting Korea and winning in Vietnam and having the nuclear bomb fall into their lap and to top it off they appear to have the Manchurian candidate in the White House.

Take a deep breath.

If you can't see those points, you need to take several deep breaths.

Re: Private German rocket makes history, reaches orbit from European soil

#194

Post by UpsideDownRide »

PorciiVorbesc wrote: post #129
hypfer wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, definitely, but being together by choice instead of by necessity is vastly preferable. Especially given that recent history has shown us that we're back to "power" being the only language spoken. __ Rel: The ecosystem thing. I would challenge that, because if there's one thing where the US has had absurd leverage over the EU (and world, for that matter), then it's tech ecosystems. A healthy ecosystem would not b…

>Especially given that recent history has shown us that we're back to "power" being the only language spoken. "Power being the only language spoken", never left in the first place in order to get back to it, it's how the world always worked and will always work. Granted, power wasn't actually the "language spoken", but more accurately it was the stick ensuring the enforcement of the terms agreed within the "language…

Always is such a strong word.

Re: Private German rocket makes history, reaches orbit from European soil

#195

Post by UpsideDownRide »

whatsThisBtn4 wrote: post #150
Danox wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what should they do nothing? They have to get started somehow if Japan and China can do it so can Europe, and I think long-term once again, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand won’t be far behind…

That's essentially what they have done for military/defense. The United States saves the day. France pretends they are in charge with grand speeches. I was close to a European immigrant and 2 things she was shocked about: How rich the United States was. Even our poor had more than her upper middle class family had. How people in the United States do not take 2 hour coffee and cigarette breaks.

Is this the joke section of the comments?

Re: Private German rocket makes history, reaches orbit from European soil

#196

Post by lkey »

godwinson__4-8 wrote: post #135
jgtrosh wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This went both ways https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Osoaviakhim

Yes a good thing to point out, however the American initiative was more successful, was it not? Largely because raw numbers aside, most of the top talent wanted to avoid the Soviets and thus the US was the only logical option. That is, part of what made the American job on this easier is top German talent anticipated some "Operation Osoaviakhim" (or worse) scenario and thus sought out the US as the only way to get ou…

[flagged]

Re: Private German rocket makes history, reaches orbit from European soil

#197

Post by rootusrootus »

noir_lord wrote: post #180
petcat wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This obsession started decades ago. Long before any recent politics. It's only gotten deeper and more intense recently.

You folks over the pond really do think we think about you that much don’t you, prior to Trump I didn’t give much of a shit what the US did (except when you were destabilising the Middle East but I guess everyone needs a hobby), was literally none of my business and I didn’t have to live there (fortunately). Now we have to pay attention because what you always where in part is in full control and it’s essentially imp…

> You folks over the pond really do think we think about you that much don’t you

Yes? You talk about us waaaaay more than we talk about you. And not just since Trump.

Re: Private German rocket makes history, reaches orbit from European soil

#198

Post by godwinson__4-8 »

lkey wrote: post #182
godwinson__4-8 wrote: post #103

A good historical nugget is that the Americans got a huge leg up in the space race by importing the Germans who worked on the V-2 program. Germans killed Soviets by the millions. If you were a German of value (like a rocket scientist) you were eager to surrender to the Americans before the Soviets could get their hands on you. If you were the Americans, you distrusted the Soviets already, so it was a win-win. https:/…

[flagged]

It seems you are misreading my comment and the cold realism in which it is articulated (and which the relevant historical actors in this moment operated under) as some sort of endorsement of the act or an ignorance of the accompanying atrocities.

Rest assured I only sought to comment in that manner because I find generally on a forum such as this, leading with a sense of outrage (regardless of how justified) is typically unhelpful. I share your sentiments, though I sort of take it as a given on this forum that these aspects of WWII are known. I would guess far less people know about Operation Paperclip, thus the "nugget".

If upon learning about this someone needs me to connect the dots to your sentiments, well frankly I would suggest such a person is likely beyond my reach given the nature of the venue we find ourselves in (pseudonymous forum).

I would encourage you to not so readily cast aspersions upon your fellow interlocutors here based on turn of phrase alone. Have a nice day.

Re: Private German rocket makes history, reaches orbit from European soil

#200

Post by jltsiren »

nephihaha wrote: post #155
MisterMunchkin wrote: post #5

How can it be the first European rocket? There’s the ESA! Are you telling me we have all these organisations and none of them have ever launched from their own continent?

It isn't. Plesetsk is in European Russia and was built to prevent overreliance on Baikonur

You are thinking about Vostochny in Russian Far East. Plesetsk was an early ICBM launch site that started doing orbital launches in 1966. It was the busiest spaceport in Soviet times, and the cumulative number of orbital launches from Plesetsk still probably exceeds those from Florida.
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