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Private German rocket makes history, reaches orbit from European soil

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Re: Private German rocket makes history, reaches orbit from European soil

#121

Post by talon8635 »

godwinson__4-8 wrote: post #103

A good historical nugget is that the Americans got a huge leg up in the space race by importing the Germans who worked on the V-2 program. Germans killed Soviets by the millions. If you were a German of value (like a rocket scientist) you were eager to surrender to the Americans before the Soviets could get their hands on you. If you were the Americans, you distrusted the Soviets already, so it was a win-win. https:/…

For any unfamiliar with the history, Russia was a mass murdering machine in this era, vaporizing tens of millions of people, including Russians, in very short spans of time without even a second thought.

We all know Germans was. And some people would fling fecal allegations that “so was the US!”. No. German and Russian actions were categorically different than wartime casualties (even brutal, possibly criminal, wartime casualties like fire bombing heavily civilian enemy areas like Dresden)

Re: Private German rocket makes history, reaches orbit from European soil

#122

Post by talon8635 »

artisinal wrote: post #91

I wonder whether the Sámi people have been consulted or compensated for the use of their traditional lands as a rocket launch site. Given Norway’s long history of suppressing Sámi people and their land rights, I'd be interested to know how that was handled.

In this house we believe the first Neanderthal did not consent

Re: Private German rocket makes history, reaches orbit from European soil

#123

Post by Danox »

godwinson__4-8 wrote: post #103

A good historical nugget is that the Americans got a huge leg up in the space race by importing the Germans who worked on the V-2 program. Germans killed Soviets by the millions. If you were a German of value (like a rocket scientist) you were eager to surrender to the Americans before the Soviets could get their hands on you. If you were the Americans, you distrusted the Soviets already, so it was a win-win. https:/…

They got a leg up and still the Russians with Sputnik got into space first, on top of splitting Korea and winning in Vietnam and having the nuclear bomb fall into their lap and to top it off they appear to have the Manchurian candidate in the White House.

Re: Private German rocket makes history, reaches orbit from European soil

#124

Post by martinclayton »

mlmonkey wrote: post #115
Fordec wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Launched from South America, not Europe.

Ariane is from the ESA, which is an organization under EU. The claim was that "EU is finally decoupling itself from the USA". My point is: the EU already has Ariane, for instance. It decoupled a long time ago.

ESA is a separate entity to the EU.

(When the UK left the EU it was able to remain in ESA because of this separation.)

Re: Private German rocket makes history, reaches orbit from European soil

#125

Post by culi »

hparadiz wrote: post #117
Danox wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He benefits enormously from the government but then acts like he doesn’t.

[flagged]

It's not good to take info as a personal attack.[0]

The most subsidized companies in human history by how long they've been around. it's worse than the actual military industrial complex (though both his major companies are heavily tied to the MIC as well)

https://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org/parent/tesla-inc

https://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org/parent/space-explor...

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_cognition

Re: Private German rocket makes history, reaches orbit from European soil

#126

Post by scotty79 »

wand3r wrote: post #78
tekla wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it grew up thanks to government assistance Please give an example of gov assistance that was not a open contract to every private launch company in the US

Yeah, I really hate this revisionism of Elon as an extremely wealthy apartheid emerald mine heir who was a dumb guy who happened to get lucky at paypal and then stole all his money from the government while operating a car and rocket company. There is plenty to criticize about him, but SpaceX dramatically decreased cost to orbit which had reliance on Russian technology at the time.

> extremely wealthy apartheid emerald mine heir who was a dumb guy who happened to get lucky at paypal and then stole all his money from the government while operating a car and rocket company.

> SpaceX dramatically decreased cost to orbit which had reliance on Russian technology at the time.

Both can be (and are) true at the same time. Elon hired/partnered the right people and didn't have capacity to mess all the companies he owned into oblivion. His main skill is bullshiting investors, the government and the public.

Re: Private German rocket makes history, reaches orbit from European soil

#127

Post by vladms »

clickety_clack wrote: post #90
hypfer wrote: post #22

This is a huge success, but it I think also tells us that the EU is further decoupling itself from the US. Slowly but steadily. Which is obviously the right thing to do, but it's interesting that it's not just a hypothetical anymore.

Coupled or uncoupled, an equal relationship between the US and the EU is much healthier. Europe should have an economy, military and industrial capacity similar to the US.

While in the current case I agree it is the path that should be taken, ideally I would prefer efficient relations, where people cooperate rather than having to duplicate everything because they don't trust their neighbor (should I make my bread because the baker might decide to poison me?!).

But having educated people everywhere is hard, so some people, because they don't get how some stuff works, they try to abuse friends and allies and make things worse (inefficient) for everybody in the process.

Re: Private German rocket makes history, reaches orbit from European soil

#128

Post by hparadiz »

samrus wrote: post #53
decimalenough wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you meant non-US? Although Ariane's rockets are wildly expensive and uncompetitive compared to SpaceX.

Cost decreases with scale. Spacex was also wildly expensive, it grew up thanks to government assistance

Except for the fact that SpaceX had a hard time getting any contracts at first because they were all going to Boeing and Lockheed Martin since the 1990s and even when SpaceX came to the market they had to compete at first with ULA and fact that they made it cheaper by orders by magnitude. Except for the fact that Musk almost went personally bankrupt trying to get SpaceX off the ground. Except for all those facts yea sure maybe... haha nope you're still wrong.

Re: Private German rocket makes history, reaches orbit from European soil

#129

Post by PorciiVorbesc »

hypfer wrote: post #55
manlymuppet wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we are stronger together. European technology has been critical to many important American space missions, and that should continue to be the case. An ecosystem where we develop things independently is one where everyone loses.

Yes, definitely, but being together by choice instead of by necessity is vastly preferable. Especially given that recent history has shown us that we're back to "power" being the only language spoken. __ Rel: The ecosystem thing. I would challenge that, because if there's one thing where the US has had absurd leverage over the EU (and world, for that matter), then it's tech ecosystems. A healthy ecosystem would not b…

>Especially given that recent history has shown us that we're back to "power" being the only language spoken.

"Power being the only language spoken", never left in the first place in order to get back to it, it's how the world always worked and will always work.

Granted, power wasn't actually the "language spoken", but more accurately it was the stick ensuring the enforcement of the terms agreed within the "language spoken", a lesson as old as time that many in EU forgot after post-USSR collapse and now have to re-learn it, but at a heavy cost and with added interest.

"Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it", couldn't be more true.

Re: Private German rocket makes history, reaches orbit from European soil

#130

Post by hparadiz »

culi wrote: post #125
hparadiz wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

It's not good to take info as a personal attack.[0] The most subsidized companies in human history by how long they've been around. it's worse than the actual military industrial complex (though both his major companies are heavily tied to the MIC as well) https://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org/parent/tesla-inc https://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org/parent/space-explor... [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultura…

[flagged]
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