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Danish high schoolers will have to verbally defend written assignments

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Re: Danish high schoolers will have to verbally defend written assignments

#191

Post by nrvn »

In my uni years bachelors, masters and PhDs required thorough research resulting in a huge opus printed and stitched together but the only thing that really mattered was the presentation of the work in front of the committee and oral defenses. To this day I have been living in full confidence that this is the academic standard that has been in place and effective (with variations) over centuries, if not millenias…

Even intermediate exams were a combinations of practical work in some written form and the theoretical grill sessions in the end of every semester.

All in all, if I had to put a professor’s hat today I would not give a sh.. if my students would use LLMs to write text. What would matter (and what does for me as a hiring manager at $WORK) and a human being with decency is the results of the _natural neural network_ training so to speak. IF whatever prompts and interactions with LLMs result in sharp knowledge of the subject and ability to apply the knowledge to solving real problems, well done and congrats!

Re: Danish high schoolers will have to verbally defend written assignments

#192

Post by sandworm101 »

da_chicken wrote: post #176
cloudie78 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, former student with social phobia and terrified of public speaking. Today: adult with no problems doing public speaking in front of hundreds. What fixed me: more public speaking and not having the option of avoiding the task.

That's part of what fixed it for me. What really fixed it was three things: 1. Actually being very knowledgeable about the subject in question, to the extent that I can offer facts or well-reasoned opinion on the topic on essentially any reasonable question. In other words, not being a junior high school student asked to do a 15 minute speech on a topic drawn from a hat. 2. Not having the idea that the audience expec…

One thing doctor, and to a lesser extent lawyers, have to do is project confidence when they may in fact not have much. A doctor/lawyer regularly has to quickly become an expert on a subject, or seem like one, often overnight but sometimes much faster than that. Briefing something you are still new to, without getting it horribly wrong, is a skill that must be developed.

I run into this in the military too. "The person to do the ethics/roe/safety/drugs/mental health brief just called in sick. Two hundred soldiers will be here at 0800 tomorrow. Read fast."

Re: Danish high schoolers will have to verbally defend written assignments

#193

Post by soxj28 »

azalemeth wrote: post #3

This is already the case for Master's degrees and above in Denmark. I've been the opponent examining students. We ask Master's students to give US instruction on a topic (drawn randomly on a card in front of them, from a list they know a few days in advance). They do a chalk and talk on a topic for about fifteen minutes with three to five professors being "dumb students". It works fantastically and at the end it's ve…

That’s not entirely true. It varies from master’s programme to master’s programme even inside the same Danish university. Assessment is defined by the corresponding programme board.

Thesis/dissertations do have to be defended, but for course assessment that is not a given.

(I run a course and teach as well on other Master programmes.)

Re: Danish high schoolers will have to verbally defend written assignments

#194

Post by zenoprax »

da_chicken wrote: post #176
cloudie78 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, former student with social phobia and terrified of public speaking. Today: adult with no problems doing public speaking in front of hundreds. What fixed me: more public speaking and not having the option of avoiding the task.

That's part of what fixed it for me. What really fixed it was three things: 1. Actually being very knowledgeable about the subject in question, to the extent that I can offer facts or well-reasoned opinion on the topic on essentially any reasonable question. In other words, not being a junior high school student asked to do a 15 minute speech on a topic drawn from a hat. 2. Not having the idea that the audience expec…

Likewise, I thought I was bad at public speaking and avoided it almost entirely until my last couple years of university. By then I found myself surrounded by friendly, curious peers who were happy for me to nerd about whatever it was I became a semi-expert on. That confidence served me well once I needed to lead/train a team at work.

Doing a presentation on Zoom seems kind of pointless as you lose the connection to the audience. I'd rather just assign a pre-record to watch and do a live Q&A later on. More like a Lecture+Tutorial format.

Re: Danish high schoolers will have to verbally defend written assignments

#195

Post by WalterBright »

cloudie78 wrote: post #168
azalemeth wrote: post #3

This is already the case for Master's degrees and above in Denmark. I've been the opponent examining students. We ask Master's students to give US instruction on a topic (drawn randomly on a card in front of them, from a list they know a few days in advance). They do a chalk and talk on a topic for about fifteen minutes with three to five professors being "dumb students". It works fantastically and at the end it's ve…

Hi, former student with social phobia and terrified of public speaking. Today: adult with no problems doing public speaking in front of hundreds. What fixed me: more public speaking and not having the option of avoiding the task.

> What fixed me: more public speaking

Yup, that's the cure. Worked for me, too.

Re: Danish high schoolers will have to verbally defend written assignments

#196

Post by wyan »

OptionOfT wrote: post #142
solenoid0937 wrote: post #35

This is a nightmare for students that don't think on their feet.

Part of college is growing as a human, and part of that is social interaction. For the same reason a lot of universities in Europe require you to take philosophy. It's completely unrelated to C++ or data-structures, but it adds to your acumen as a whole. Not that different from some universities that require you to be able to swim[0]. [0]: https://perec.columbia.edu/swim-test-requirement

I only know the Uni system of a few European countries, but generally I would expect Philosophy to be a prerequirement that you take for your entrance examinations, not during studies per se (unless you're studying humanities, of course).

Re: Danish high schoolers will have to verbally defend written assignments

#197

Post by Daviey »

I'm quite impressed with the Hungarian system, for 18-19 year old school leavers, where every subject is split 50/50 between:

  - Írásbeli (written) - standardised written exam, centrally set and marked
  - Szóbeli (oral) - the panel interview
The oral (szóbeli) has:

  - A committee of 2-3 teachers sits as a panel
  - The student draws a topic at random from a list
  - They get prep time (usually 15-20 mins)
  - They present their answer to the panel
  - The panel asks follow-up questions and probes understanding

Re: Danish high schoolers will have to verbally defend written assignments

#198

Post by sensanaty »

khazhoux wrote: post #154
talon8635 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have always disliked public speaking and oral defense since I was a child, to the point of fairly profound anxiety. But please withhold you woe—these people are, as I am today, adults. Masters students. Coddling them and holding low expectations has proven to be a sort of “killing them with kindness” approach to handling modern youth. People need to be encouraged (and required) to do things they don’t like to becom…

Classic “get over it” condescension. Some people are unable to control their strong physiological reaction to in-person judgement. Go tell professional orchestra players who rely on propranolol to control their stage fright to just grow up and start becoming a “proper functioning adult.” https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/hast.70031 https://www.thecrimson.com/column/a-night-at-the-symphony/ar...

I have approx 10 meetings a week, usually more, sometimes less. Let's say around 8 hours a week spent in meetings, sometimes with people who hold the power to fire me.

Depending on your role this number can be much higher.

I'd say "get over it", because this is simply a fact of life and you'll have to talk to and present in front of a group of people at some point, perhaps regularly too.

Re: Danish high schoolers will have to verbally defend written assignments

#199

Post by cpburns2009 »

zero_shift wrote: post #125
moffkalast wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Students with speech differences, anxiety disorders, hearing impairments, or simply less fluency in the language of instruction face an extra barrier that a written submission does not impose. The written form, for all its flaws, leveled some of that ground. Shall we abandon the differently abled because machines disrupt the academic system and essentially make cheating effective? Universities are entirely elective…

I feel this was already a severe problem pre-AI. From what I hear from my partner (in university administration), nearly half the students demand accomodations for disabilities. Many of those conditions are very difficult to falsify It doesn't feel good, but at some point we have to ask, can we support every single case, at the expense of the whole? I'd like to be convinced that's not a necessary tradeoff

What I don't get is why we disadvantage everyone who's honest. Just give everyone extra time to level the playing field.

Re: Danish high schoolers will have to verbally defend written assignments

#200

Post by sghiassy »

WalterBright wrote: post #195
cloudie78 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, former student with social phobia and terrified of public speaking. Today: adult with no problems doing public speaking in front of hundreds. What fixed me: more public speaking and not having the option of avoiding the task.

> What fixed me: more public speaking Yup, that's the cure. Worked for me, too.

As someone with lifelong social anxiety. There is the concept of White Knuckling an event. If the anxiety is so far beyond your capability that start to panic, you only reinforce the fear instead of soothe it.

That’s why exposure therapy with an anxiety ladder is important

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