Japan develops a method to recover up to 90% of lithium from used EV batteries • Hacker News Board

Re: Japan develops a method to recover up to 90% of lithium from used EV batteries

#191

Post by numpad0 » Tue, Jul 14, 2026, 3:54 PM UTC

jabl wrote: post #187

akssri wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Between METI, Toyota & others, they appear to have spent > $40B over multiple decades. It's a bit silly to downplay their investment based on the sales numbers of Toyota Mirai.

So we should ignore the Mirai sales numbers and conclude, uh, what, that the entire $40B investment is wasted and hasn't produced anything of value? Or if we want to be charitable, surely the $40B has resulted in some advancement of the scientific knowledge. From which we can conclude that the "hydrogen economy" remains a pipe dream despite all the investment so far?

$40B is also less than a single year's worth of defense budget, of Japan, so... it's just about what's expected of a vaguely forward looking government funded program. It's not really a giant high risk make-or-break bet.

Re: Japan develops a method to recover up to 90% of lithium from used EV batteries

#192

Post by Sohcahtoa82 » Tue, Jul 14, 2026, 4:30 PM UTC

mattclarkdotnet wrote: post #91

Sabinus wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sulfuric acid, hydrogen peroxide, sodium carbonate. Not catalysts but reagents. Most currently come from fossil fuel feedstock but that isn't essential.

Why would any of those compounds come from fossil fuels? Sulfur is mined, hydrogen peroxide is water with some oxygen taken off, and sodium carbonate is made from salt and limestone

> hydrogen peroxide is water with some oxygen taken off

Isn't it water with some oxygen added?

Re: Japan develops a method to recover up to 90% of lithium from used EV batteries

#193

Post by ErroneousBosh » Tue, Jul 14, 2026, 4:59 PM UTC

lostlogin wrote: post #163

ErroneousBosh wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As late as the early 80s and probably later there was a guy in the city I live near that had a battery recycling company where they did just that - melted the pitch to extract the cells from the battery "bucket", cut the old cells off and melted them down, cast new grids and put new lead oxide in, and sealed it all up again. My dad bought a recycled lorry battery off them in the late 70s, and I remember going to the…

There are a fair few risks. Electrical and chemical burns, electrocution, fire, the weights involved, poisoning, heavy metals. It’s hard to think of a risk category that doesn’t apply.

It's not radioactive, so it's got that going for it, which is nice.

Re: Japan develops a method to recover up to 90% of lithium from used EV batteries

#194

Post by tpm » Tue, Jul 14, 2026, 6:08 PM UTC

ufocia wrote: post #157

tpm wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the issues with recycling lithium from electrolyte containing lithium hexafluorophosphate in solvents is more the hexafluorophosphate part; it's highly reactive, hygroscopic and releases (toxic, corrosive) hydrogen fluoride upon contact with water. So purely from economic perspective it's possibly not worth it unless we are very lithium-constrained. Of course it should be done anyway as there will be a lot of…

> Of course it should be done anyway as there will be a lot of used batteries in near future. The necessity for recycling those batteries, without more, does not logically follow from their relative abundance in view of the purely economic perspective you posit. Why not just bury them? It may be the scarcity of lithium that may drive us to take otherwise expensive steps to recycle such batteries. The conclusory "of c…

here in densely populated parts of the world we don't prefer burying toxic waste close to our homes.

Re: Japan develops a method to recover up to 90% of lithium from used EV batteries

#195

Post by thegrim33 » Tue, Jul 14, 2026, 8:03 PM UTC

andrewclunn wrote: post #151

BaudouinVH wrote: post #67

The article is very, very light with details. The university or research center is not named. No scientist is named. No link. Nothing that tells "look, we're telling you real, solid, serious stuff." Here is another article with that details : https://www.techspot.com/news/112051-japan-finds-way-recover...

The "up to" seems to be doing a lot of work.

Yup. Any time you see weasel words, especially this one, whether it's in advertisements, product descriptions, wherever, you can instantly dismiss the product/claim. It's such a quick and easy tell to notice.

Re: Japan develops a method to recover up to 90% of lithium from used EV batteries

#196

Post by qsera » Wed, Jul 15, 2026, 1:08 AM UTC

cogman10 wrote: post #190

qsera wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You paint a happy path. But the devil is in the details that often come to light only much later. Sure, we could end up with a tech that have really no pollution potential. But there is much higher chance that we would end-up with something bad, that would go into production with a promise of "proper handling and re-cycling", but would never end up getting done...

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that there was no pollution potential or problems. My point was primarily that the chemicals within the lithium ion batteries are themselves pretty common on the surface and not forever poisons like lead. My other point was that the major issue around these was primarily the chemicals used to purify and refine. Those can be nasty especially if not treated well. But all things considered,…

But scale matters too. I wouldn't be too worried if we are not going to eventually replace all fossil fuels with batteries.

That is a lot of batteries..

Re: Japan develops a method to recover up to 90% of lithium from used EV batteries

#197

Post by cogman10 » Wed, Jul 15, 2026, 1:48 AM UTC

qsera wrote: post #196

cogman10 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that there was no pollution potential or problems. My point was primarily that the chemicals within the lithium ion batteries are themselves pretty common on the surface and not forever poisons like lead. My other point was that the major issue around these was primarily the chemicals used to purify and refine. Those can be nasty especially if not treated well. But all things considered,…

But scale matters too. I wouldn't be too worried if we are not going to eventually replace all fossil fuels with batteries. That is a lot of batteries..

By volume, there will necessarily be less batteries than there is oil extracted and burned in a week.

I think if you are worried about pollutants, you should be worried about the fumes released every time you start up a fossil fuel engine.

Yes, it's a lot of batteries, but they are batteries with 10 to 20 years of service life as opposed to ~1 week worth of fuel transported, refined, and burned.

When it comes to energy, there's no perfect solution. IMO, LiPos are the best of bad options. Yes they pollute, but they pollute a lot less, particularly over their lifetime.

Re: Japan develops a method to recover up to 90% of lithium from used EV batteries

#198

Post by kalleboo » Wed, Jul 15, 2026, 2:05 AM UTC

freetime2 wrote: post #125

tyre wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In your opinion/experience, why is it that they aren't switching?

First, I'll point out that EV sales in Japan have doubled in the first half of 2026 due to increased government subsidies which took effect in January. [1] This has greatly reduced the cost difference between EVs and gasoline cars, which I think was a major reason people weren't buying EVs. Things may be changing. Toyota has also finally started to make compelling EVs with the bZ4X and bz4X Touring, which could help…

> Electricity is also quite expensive. I did the math on my PHEV - and even if I only charge overnight when electricity rates are lowest, I don't save very much over using gasoline

I'm curious how the math would work out with an all-denka plan. I work from home so I switched from an electric plan where during daylight solar hours my electricity drops to 13 yen/kWh

Re: Japan develops a method to recover up to 90% of lithium from used EV batteries

#199

Post by kalleboo » Wed, Jul 15, 2026, 2:13 AM UTC

numpad0 wrote: post #64

tyre wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In your opinion/experience, why is it that they aren't switching?

Issues with home charging comes to mind, but I suspect it might have to do with gas station experience in Japan not being so miserable. Phrases that are equivalent to "full tank every morning with no need for drives to gas pumps" basically don't appear on Japanese Internet. I just googled a bit for Model 3 user reviews in Japanese, and most mentioned items seem to be futuristic experience, various minor QoL and relia…

> I suspect it might have to do with gas station experience in Japan not being so miserable

Maybe it's different in other parts of the country or maybe the fact that EVs are so expensive their owners have different price sensitivity but one of the main reasons I would want an EV here in Japan is the miserable gas station experience.

In my city, half the gas stations have rip-off prices, 10-20 yen/liter higher than the cheapest stations. Often they just show a blinking "888" as a price so you can't even tell before pulling up to the stall. I pay for a map app that shows gas station prices (and which parking lots are free). Sometimes they'll have decent prices if you get a cash prepaid card or some kind of membership. The cheapest stations are either a 10 minute detour or I have to stand in line for 10 minutes (the cheapest in town is so popular cars line up across an intersection, incredibly dangerous).

On the highway the prices are even worse, since you're a captive audience (all highways are tolled and getting off and on the highway will ding you since prices are based on segments)

Re: Japan develops a method to recover up to 90% of lithium from used EV batteries

#200

Post by themaninthedark » Wed, Jul 15, 2026, 3:35 AM UTC

cogman10 wrote: post #174

ufocia wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are other toxic substance like phosphorus in "lithium" batteries. Some "lithium" battery chemistries, though reportedly not LFP, contain cobalt, a very toxic heavy metal. Besides, there isn't a clear definition of what is a heavy metal. Even iron and copper, used in LFP, are considered heavy metals by some. BTW, lithium itself is highly toxic too.

> cobalt, a very toxic heavy metal Cobalt is neither particularly toxic nor a heavy metal. In fact, it's a part of vitamin B12. You might be thinking of Cadmium, which is indeed a very toxic and nasty metal. In LiPos the heaviest metals are Iron and Nickel. That's by design. Heavier metals tend to be more expensive to procure. In trace amounts, by both weight and volume lithium batteries are mostly nickel and/or iron…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobalt Toxicity The LD50 value for soluble cobalt salts has been estimated to be between 150 and 500 mg/kg. Thus, for a 100 kg person the LD50 would be about 20 grams.[209] Cobaltism (cobalt poisoning) is rare but has resulted from the fabrication of tungsten carbide.[210] Another source is from wear and tear of certain metal-on-metal hip prostheses.[211]

Chronic cobalt ingestion has caused serious health problems at doses far less than the lethal dose. In 1966, the addition of cobalt compounds to stabilize beer foam in Canada led to a peculiar form of toxin-induced cardiomyopathy, which came to be known as beer drinker's cardiomyopathy.[212][213]

Cobalt metal is suspected of causing cancer (i.e., possibly carcinogenic, IARC Group 2B) as per the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) Monographs.[214]

It causes respiratory problems when inhaled.[215] It also causes skin problems when touched; after nickel and chromium, cobalt is a major cause of contact dermatitis.[216]