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'Hairdryer used to trick weather sensor' to win Polymarket bet

telegraph.co.uk

191–200 of 270 posts

Re: 'Hairdryer used to trick weather sensor' to win Polymarket bet

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A few years years ago, there was no conceivable profit motive for interfering with weather sensors on public property. Now there is one. Can this really be said with a straight face? Suppose you're an oil company, or a trader with a large position, and "hottest year on record ten years in a row" is bad PR that will make bills you don't like more likely to get passed. Or for that matter a company selling carbon capt…

> Your argument is that people had no existing profit motive to use dirty tricks to influence scientific results/data? No, that's way too broad. I don't believe that , and I didn't write that . Oil companies indeed had enormous incentives to obscure and confuse the scientific record of climate change. But hiring thousands of Taskrabbits to go around the world blowing hot and/or cold air on weather sensors would not h…

> some of them would have been caught, and it would've been exposed as a hamfisted and shambolic scandal.

Isn't that the same thing that happened here? It's a news story because they got caught. There is apparently already a law against this sort of tampering and it makes sense to have that law.

> Now, because of prediction markets, the "attack surface" for interfering with scientific data collection is much larger and more fine-grained.

Oil and tobacco companies are the canonical examples because they're huge and contemptible, but the incentives scale all the way down. A small industrial plant is only allowed to use river water for cooling as long as the temperature isn't too high, they now have the incentive to cause the reading to be lower. The local school doesn't have A/C and therefore cancels class whenever the outside temperature is above some threshold, what happens when the kids figure out that the temperature sensor they use is in a public place?

You can make messing with the sensor illegal to apply a disincentive to counter the incentive but that doesn't mean the incentive wasn't always there to begin with.

Re: 'Hairdryer used to trick weather sensor' to win Polymarket bet

#192
post #179

> There are no indications so far that the successful punters have had to return their winnings. However, the data source for Paris’s hottest temperature has since moved to a sensor at the smaller Paris-Le Bourget airport. Here's the negative externality that no one will care about. There's no reason gamblers won't repeat this stunt, until us poor schmucks who just want an accurate temperature reading have to build a…

Re externalities, don't they use the temperature to calculate the length of the takeoff roll and other stuff about the flight, fuel load, etc? Maybe they use the plane's own temperature sensors for that though.

The airport needs to know that by themselves as well because it's part of METAR

Now imagine we're can't have this basic resource anymore because some nerd fuckr needs to win a bet on the internet

Makes me want to bet on creative uses of a baseball bat

Re: 'Hairdryer used to trick weather sensor' to win Polymarket bet

#193
post #131
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's quite a lot of ways to interpret this question... but for that day's daily bet: > A temperature of 18C was seen as a 99.6pc probability before the temperature spiked later in the day. 99.6% of them didn't take the insane bet. And at least one of those 0.4% (by value? count? idk) decided to cheat.

> 99.6% of them didn't take the insane bet. I don't think the actual bet was insane, but the concept of betting on the weather is insane.

There are legitimate reasons to bet on the weather. If you're a farmer, betting on drought can be a hedge against a bad year.

Re: 'Hairdryer used to trick weather sensor' to win Polymarket bet

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterpoint, why are we measuring temperature on what is basically a giant radiator?

Counter-counterpoint, why are people wagering on an airport thermometer measurement?

It's a catch-22: I already gambled the coin I was going to use for the heads-or-tails bet.

Re: 'Hairdryer used to trick weather sensor' to win Polymarket bet

#195
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, there are plenty of negative externalities that this type of gambling brings that are much worse, but at least in this case it does appear that authorities are investigating. At the very least I would expect some law to be broken if interfering with official weather data collection at an active airport.

I agree, but the fact that authorities even have to spend time investigating is a massive negative externality. A few years years ago, there was no conceivable profit motive for interfering with weather sensors on public property. Now there is one.

[deleted]

Re: 'Hairdryer used to trick weather sensor' to win Polymarket bet

#196
post #87
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But why are they only using one sensor?

Because we used to be a high trust society where degenrate gamblers wouldnt mess with scientific equipment to rip each other off

I hear what you're saying man, but honestly it's a sensor. Sensors can fail all the time even without deliberate tampering. It doesn't seem to really make sense to have a single one in a single location. Besides for clarity, my question was more why was the market referenced on a single sensor rather than on multiple sensors?

Re: 'Hairdryer used to trick weather sensor' to win Polymarket bet

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They didn't say you said it. But wow what a useless way of conversing that is. They asked because it's unclear what you're implying. So could you please clarify if you think regulation would be useful? Or should be done despite being futile? Or shouldn't be done? I can only think of those three answers, is there another?

I think smart policy would be a good start. I just made a comment on the sign of our times. I could have worded my one line reply better. I do think it will be difficult to regulate as I don't see a political appetite to do so. Maybe some countries will get it right.

For the record, I do agree with this perspective at least from an external observer of the US. Many places already regulate these types of gambling much better. What I mostly took issue with is what I read to be a resolute throwing up of the hands of any action being useless.

It is indeed unfortunate that the level of corruption in the current US administration likely precludes any action on it in the current term.

Re: 'Hairdryer used to trick weather sensor' to win Polymarket bet

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an existing problem with physical world sensing. Some data models are already heavily polluted by people manipulating observations for various purposes. Most people who rely on those measurements are just collateral damage. Prediction markets provide yet another incentive. It is far more difficult to reliably get at "ground truth" than I think people imagine. Unlike computing systems, the physical world is a…

> There are ways to robustly clean this up analytically but it is largely beyond the capabilities of current tech stacks. Can you expand on that? Even just conceptually that sounds really hard, how would you know whether you're measuring genuine (unexpected) changes in the environment rather than the result of (possibly sophisticated and coordinated) deliberate manipulation?

If you don't trust your measurements, and you shouldn't because all physical world measurements are proxies, the alternative is to find several unrelated and redundant proxies for "ground truth" and have them corroborate and correct each other. There is a lot of errors, bugs, noise, idiosyncratic behavior, etc degrading the data even ignoring intentional manipulation so you really should be doing this anyway.

Stitching unrelated proxies and sensing modalities into a coherent data model is a spatiotemporal graph reconstruction problem. The join predicates require non-trivial inference algorithms if you want to avoid being buried in false positives. From this you can derive an estimate of ground truth and a model of uncertainty at a point in space and time.

The model of uncertainty is dynamic and unpredictable. It is difficult to manipulate the measurement without producing data that falls outside the uncertainty model across every proxy by which someone might construct that uncertainty model. This is similar to how e.g. GPS spoofing is detected in military systems. All GPS updates must fit within a (classified) dynamic uncertainty model relative to INS; if an update falls outside the model then the GPS signal is presumed compromised and updates ignored.

At the limit, this restricts manipulation to values within the uncertainty model. If you have a lot of unrelated proxies, you can make the window of uncertainty tight enough that manipulation becomes effectively impossible. At a minimum, the adversary would need to be able to manipulate every proxy and modality feeding your uncertainty model simultaneously.

These graph, spatial, and spatiotemporal algorithms scale very poorly on traditional data infrastructure and these data models easily run into petabytes if you are stacking multiple independent data sources.

Re: 'Hairdryer used to trick weather sensor' to win Polymarket bet

#200
post #107

This is small potatoes compared to the rain gauge tampering farmers were doing in Colorado. There was a recent conviction for $6.5 million dollars of fraud against the federal crop insurance program! https://www.justice.gov/usao-co/pr/two-southeastern-colorado...

People have no idea how pervasive this is globally.

If it exists, and money can flow, it will be gamed.
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