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In Denmark, the spread of solar panels has become a divisive issue

theguardian.com

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Re: In Denmark, the spread of solar panels has become a divisive issue

#191

Post by leonidasrup »

2000UltraDeluxe wrote: post #178
leonidasrup wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Solar power in Finland is really not important. Data from 2025. Nuclear 32 TWh, Wind 22 TWh, Hydro 12 TWh, Solar 1 TWh. https://ourworldindata.org/profile/energy/finland

Indeed, and large parts of the reason has nothing to do with geography. The same applies to Denmark and the rest of the Nordics. Obviously solar will be decreasingly useful as you get further to the pole, but the Nordics aren't worse off than Alaska or Canada in that regard, and both do solar to some extent AFAIK.

It has lot to do with geographic latitude and weather patterns. The amount of electric output per amount solar installed strongly affects the profitability of solar installation (if you don't count of government subsidies).

You get the following output on average each year

Denmark 1000 kWh/kWp

South Germany 1200 kWh/kWp

South Spain 1700 kWh/kWp

Egypt up to 2000 kWh/kWp

Re: In Denmark, the spread of solar panels has become a divisive issue

#192

Post by jeppester »

garte wrote: post #181
jeppester wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems as though you are antagonizing a certain imaginary group of people that I do not belong to, just because I chose to live in the country side. There was a reason I used the phrasing "green surroundings", I'm well aware that it's not "nature" in the sense of being untouched by humans. There are hardly any such places in Denmark. Nevertheless people live here because they like these surroundings, it doesn't mak…

Thanks for your thorough response, I appreciate it. My point was less that "everything comes from the city" but that living in the countryside has massive externalities that get deposited elsewhere as I mentioned. So it would be kind of fair to at least start accepting some externalities - like energy - to be actually part of your living reality. In essence: you need energy, get it yourself and don't NIMBY your way o…

The fields that the solar farms are replacing were generating food for everyone, including those who live in the cities.

1-2 days per year the whole town has a smell of manure.

That's is an externality we accepted when we moved here, so we do not complain that the fields need to produce food.

Also, you are implying that we have not accepted any solar panels, which is wrong. We have plenty in the near area. We just don't want all the fields surrounding the town to be plastered with panels.

Re: In Denmark, the spread of solar panels has become a divisive issue

#193

Post by garte »

jeppester wrote: post #192
garte wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for your thorough response, I appreciate it. My point was less that "everything comes from the city" but that living in the countryside has massive externalities that get deposited elsewhere as I mentioned. So it would be kind of fair to at least start accepting some externalities - like energy - to be actually part of your living reality. In essence: you need energy, get it yourself and don't NIMBY your way o…

The fields that the solar farms are replacing were generating food for everyone, including those who live in the cities. 1-2 days per year the whole town has a smell of manure. That's is an externality we accepted when we moved here, so we do not complain that the fields need to produce food. Also, you are implying that we have not accepted any solar panels, which is wrong. We have plenty in the near area. We just do…

As I said below:

Cozy small time agriculture in the west is a small part of your general food supply. The rest is in places you do not want to live and is called monoculture. A huge part of your food supply is not produced "in the countryside" in either Denmark or most of the West.

It all starts with oil and energy. Nothing else matters as much. So getting off oil and producing energy in other ways is at the forefront of our struggle as a species and if you deny this progress because it hinders the view from your detached house porch I get the impression you have not really realized the situation we are in.

Re: In Denmark, the spread of solar panels has become a divisive issue

#194

Post by Jensson »

leonidasrup wrote: post #191
2000UltraDeluxe wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, and large parts of the reason has nothing to do with geography. The same applies to Denmark and the rest of the Nordics. Obviously solar will be decreasingly useful as you get further to the pole, but the Nordics aren't worse off than Alaska or Canada in that regard, and both do solar to some extent AFAIK.

It has lot to do with geographic latitude and weather patterns. The amount of electric output per amount solar installed strongly affects the profitability of solar installation (if you don't count of government subsidies). You get the following output on average each year Denmark 1000 kWh/kWp South Germany 1200 kWh/kWp South Spain 1700 kWh/kWp Egypt up to 2000 kWh/kWp

And summer isn't when you need the power anyway, so its very inefficient since northern winters has barely any sunlight at all, its close to 0 from solar power then. In warmer countries you want power in the summer for AC during the day, so there it matches usage, but in northern countries solar isn't very useful at all.

Re: In Denmark, the spread of solar panels has become a divisive issue

#195

Post by Jensson »

2000UltraDeluxe wrote: post #178
leonidasrup wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Solar power in Finland is really not important. Data from 2025. Nuclear 32 TWh, Wind 22 TWh, Hydro 12 TWh, Solar 1 TWh. https://ourworldindata.org/profile/energy/finland

Indeed, and large parts of the reason has nothing to do with geography. The same applies to Denmark and the rest of the Nordics. Obviously solar will be decreasingly useful as you get further to the pole, but the Nordics aren't worse off than Alaska or Canada in that regard, and both do solar to some extent AFAIK.

> but the Nordics aren't worse off than Alaska or Canada in that regard

Nordics are much further north than Canada, most Canadians live further south than Paris and Paris is a lot further south than even Denmark that is much further south than Finland.

Re: In Denmark, the spread of solar panels has become a divisive issue

#196

Post by AlBugdy »

jeppester wrote: post #103

I live in a small Danish town that would have very likely been surrounded by solar panels by now if we had not put up a fight. The problem is that these projects are pitched to land owners, to be placed in areas they can't see from their own windows. Those who live nearby are not involved until the approval is a formality (or presented as such). Often times the investors will also pay certain house owners for their s…

So you put up a fight because people put something on their own land that doesn't look pretty without a HOA agreement in place? Or am I missing something?

If I were living there and wanted to do an upgrade like solar panels but then some neighbor complained that my house is an "eye sore" and was supposedly decreasing their property value, I'd be really frustrated.

Re: In Denmark, the spread of solar panels has become a divisive issue

#197

Post by f33d5173 »

torginus wrote: post #160
deaux wrote: post #130

The Guardian here using the word "climate" 6 times. They mention prices and economics zero times. They talk about energy sovereignty zero times. While the US attack on Iran has massively increased fossil fuel prices. Framing solar expansion as being for the climate rather than the number one way reduce cost of living for everyone, boost the economy through cheap electricity, _and_ decrease dependency on other countri…

Though if we steer the conversation towards sovereignity, it bears mentioning that all components of solar installs (inverters, panels, and batteries) tend to be made in China, and afaik just recently they revoked some tax breaks that applied to solar equipment.

Sovereignty doesn't mean autarky. Gas requires continuous resupplying which depends on maintaining relations with foreign countries. Solar requires you to acquire equipment to set it up, but doesn't require an ongoing relationship beyond that. Having invested heavily in solar doesn't give china a veto in your political affairs thereafter, except to the degree they would have one otherwise.

Re: In Denmark, the spread of solar panels has become a divisive issue

#198

Post by marssaxman »

amarant wrote: post #83
fritzo wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's a poor location for photovoltaics, it's exactly as a poor for photosynthesis

It's very seasonal for both. But we're currently better at storing wheat for 6 months than we are at storing electricity for a similar period.

Whether you store it or not, getting free energy from the sun for half the year is better than getting no energy from the sun. Every marginal reduction in fossil fuel usage helps.

Re: In Denmark, the spread of solar panels has become a divisive issue

#199

Post by kioshix »

AlBugdy wrote: post #196
jeppester wrote: post #103

I live in a small Danish town that would have very likely been surrounded by solar panels by now if we had not put up a fight. The problem is that these projects are pitched to land owners, to be placed in areas they can't see from their own windows. Those who live nearby are not involved until the approval is a formality (or presented as such). Often times the investors will also pay certain house owners for their s…

So you put up a fight because people put something on their own land that doesn't look pretty without a HOA agreement in place? Or am I missing something? If I were living there and wanted to do an upgrade like solar panels but then some neighbor complained that my house is an "eye sore" and was supposedly decreasing their property value, I'd be really frustrated.

They're not talking about a home owner's solar panels here, but giant solar farms surrounding them.

Re: In Denmark, the spread of solar panels has become a divisive issue

#200

Post by cjrp »

teamonkey wrote: post #59
danw1979 wrote: post #58

I took a stroll recently through the countryside around Swindon, UK, where there’s a massive new solar farm on formerly arable land. One thing I only just realised was how the view from the ground is so badly affected when you’re down amidst the endless rows of panels - they reach well above head height. It’s basically like walking through a industrial estate, just with more grass in between. Really very bleak. Give…

Are you sure it’s arable land? The majority of solar farms in the UK are built on low-grade land that aren’t suitable for growing food.

I wonder if that will remain the case. The input costs for farming are increasing (seed, fertiliser, energy), the output is becoming less predictable (flood, drought) and the grants from DEFRA which are meant to smooth things out have dried up somewhat since Brexit. If farmers are offered a guaranteed income for a field, I suspect they'd take it.
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