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In Denmark, the spread of solar panels has become a divisive issue

theguardian.com

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Re: In Denmark, the spread of solar panels has become a divisive issue

#151

Post by nslsm »

deaux wrote: post #130

The Guardian here using the word "climate" 6 times. They mention prices and economics zero times. They talk about energy sovereignty zero times. While the US attack on Iran has massively increased fossil fuel prices. Framing solar expansion as being for the climate rather than the number one way reduce cost of living for everyone, boost the economy through cheap electricity, _and_ decrease dependency on other countri…

Don’t attribute to malice what can be attributed to stupidity. And this is a leftist rag, so there’s lots of stupidity going on.

Re: In Denmark, the spread of solar panels has become a divisive issue

#152

Post by nslsm »

nixpulvis wrote: post #97
carefree-bob wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I don't think you're qualified to make this assessment. If a large majority of the scientific community is treating it and calling it an existential threat, I'm tempted to agree. In fact, I think most widely held scientific stances on this are meant to be balanced and as agreeable as possible, so I personally believe it's likely to be worse than the mainstream opinion. Climate migration is already an issue. Extreme c…

> I don't think you're qualified to make this assessment.

The scientists aren’t, either, given how many times they have failed.

Re: In Denmark, the spread of solar panels has become a divisive issue

#153

Post by garte »

jeppester wrote: post #103

I live in a small Danish town that would have very likely been surrounded by solar panels by now if we had not put up a fight. The problem is that these projects are pitched to land owners, to be placed in areas they can't see from their own windows. Those who live nearby are not involved until the approval is a formality (or presented as such). Often times the investors will also pay certain house owners for their s…

You know that all that "nature" you desire is synthetic? Living in rural areas without actually working there is as far from a natural state as it can be: the whole lifestyle is based on subsidies by cities and technology: your concrete, your car, your heating, your power, groceries... it's all getting brought to you by fossil fuels and plastics.

So maybe accepting some part of that technology to stand on your "natural" grass in your front yard might be necessary to at least offset _some_ of the costs you're imposing on the environment living your lifestyle.

Re: In Denmark, the spread of solar panels has become a divisive issue

#154

Post by jeppester »

shibapuppie wrote: post #141
jeppester wrote: post #103

I live in a small Danish town that would have very likely been surrounded by solar panels by now if we had not put up a fight. The problem is that these projects are pitched to land owners, to be placed in areas they can't see from their own windows. Those who live nearby are not involved until the approval is a formality (or presented as such). Often times the investors will also pay certain house owners for their s…

What's the over-under on tire and brake dust settling on panels next to (presumably) high-speed motorways?

Thank you for bringing this up. It's not something I've thought of as a problem before.

It does in fact - based on my 5 minutes of research - seem that it can be an important factor, especially if the panels are placed within "splash range" of the road.

When I mention solar panels near motorways I'm not picturing them right next to the road, I'm thinking of larger strips, perhaps 30-100 meters from the road and in areas that have already become unattractive due to noise pollution. There are many such areas.

I think the main issue with using them is that there are many land owners involved. It's easier to get fewer land owners to commit larger fields, than many land owners to commit small strips. But that is IMO a solvable problem, not a good reason for placing the panels next to where people like to live.

Re: In Denmark, the spread of solar panels has become a divisive issue

#155

Post by teamonkey »

danw1979 wrote: post #58

I took a stroll recently through the countryside around Swindon, UK, where there’s a massive new solar farm on formerly arable land. One thing I only just realised was how the view from the ground is so badly affected when you’re down amidst the endless rows of panels - they reach well above head height. It’s basically like walking through a industrial estate, just with more grass in between. Really very bleak. Give…

I can no longer edit my comment to add this, but this article really hammers the point home.

In the UK, by 2050, less than 1% of land will be needed for solar and wind production. Similar to what is currently used by golf courses.

The infographic showing land use on that page is eye-opening. Considering that the UK would naturally be covered in rainforest and not fields.

https://www.carbonbrief.org/qa-what-englands-new-land-use-fr...

Re: In Denmark, the spread of solar panels has become a divisive issue

#156

Post by ben_w »

dylan604 wrote: post #91
swsieber wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Around, not over. Trees are a well studied thing where can you pick different species for different characteristics, like height, and growth speed.

TIL shadows from trees only project down directly under the tree and never project away from the tree itself. My entire life experience has been rendered useless.

Assuming they're talking about this one: https://www.thisiswiltshire.co.uk/news/25299826.swindon-sola...

It's obvious from the scale of it that the fact of how shadows move over the course of a day isn't going to make much difference, even if they go much above the height of the panels, which they don't need to in order to hide them from people at ground level.

Re: In Denmark, the spread of solar panels has become a divisive issue

#157

Post by ben_w »

simmerup wrote: post #108
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is 100% an existential threat, but the existential bit happens in 100 years No, it’s not, and no, we don’t know that. Humans will survive climate change. Rich countries will survive, too. We will all suffer. Economically, healthwise and aesthetically. But that’s not existential. Framing it as such is disingenuous and counterproductive.

RCP8.5 is pretty much ruled out by people as unlikely for some reason, even as we have the major super power on the planet pulling out of the Paris agreement on climate change. There is clearly a temperature at which this planet will not support human life, and we could definitely get the planet to that temperature if we don't change course and reach net zero. Saying its not an existential threat is just wild to me.

> There is clearly a temperature at which this planet will not support human life

Yes, but that temperature isn't going to be reached by fossil fuels.*

The reduced brain function from the extra CO2 (if we burned all of it) may make us unable to adapt to the higher temperature, however.

* Ironically, unbounded growth of PV to tile all Earth's deserts could also raise the planet's temperature by 4 K or so, and 6 K or so if tiling all non-farm land.

Deserts are huge, this by itself would represent an enormous increase in global electricity supply; but also, current growth trends for PV have been approximately exponential (in the actual maths sense not just "fast") for decades now, so this could happen in as little as 35 years give or take a few (both scenarios are within the same margin for error, because exponential is like that).

Re: In Denmark, the spread of solar panels has become a divisive issue

#158

Post by littlestymaar »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #148
littlestymaar wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you only consume 10% of your total consumption in 1/3 of the years? Mining bitcoin in summer yo drive total consumption up?

Are you saying it's cloudy for four months straight? And the panels are still making power during the winter. A detailed chart would be nice but a good starting point to imagine is 60-70 days that average 50% solar power and the rest of the year is full solar power minus a couple particularly bad days. Edit: In winter, in denmark, the amount of sunlight you get per square meter of flat ground is absolutely awful. But…

> Are you saying it's cloudy for four months straight?

No. But it's cloudy most of the time for four month straight (in average there's only 200 hours of sun between November and February in Copenhagen. Yes, you read it right, that's not even 2 hours per day in average!).

> A detailed chart would be nice but a good starting point to imagine is 60-70 days that average 50% solar power and the rest of the year is full solar power minus a couple particularly bad days

That's an insane assumption! An average of 50% solar power during the day is the higher bound of what you can expect in the middle of the Nevada desert! (Because you know, the sun rises and falls during the day, it's never going to give the full power during daytime). And because there's night half of the time in average, even in Nevada you end up with load factors around 25%! (Go check the figures!)

In winter in Danemark, the situation is obviously far worse! A 2-5% load factor is to be expected depending on the weather. (Just check the live data: we're in April, it's 11am and solar panels are delivering just 10% of their power right now https://app.electricitymaps.com/map/zone/DK-DK1/live/fifteen... )

> the 90% number isn't crazy.

If this number doesn't sounds crazy to you, it's just because you're completely off in terms of orders of magnitude involved. 90% is likely achievable in southern US with great effort, lots of storage for night times and significant over-paneling, but it's pure science fiction in Denmark.

Re: In Denmark, the spread of solar panels has become a divisive issue

#160

Post by torginus »

deaux wrote: post #130

The Guardian here using the word "climate" 6 times. They mention prices and economics zero times. They talk about energy sovereignty zero times. While the US attack on Iran has massively increased fossil fuel prices. Framing solar expansion as being for the climate rather than the number one way reduce cost of living for everyone, boost the economy through cheap electricity, _and_ decrease dependency on other countri…

Though if we steer the conversation towards sovereignity, it bears mentioning that all components of solar installs (inverters, panels, and batteries) tend to be made in China, and afaik just recently they revoked some tax breaks that applied to solar equipment.
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