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Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

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Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#191

Post by jan_g »

smsm42 wrote: post #112
cromka wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the same. They know the car was yours so, by extension, you should be aware of its whereabouts at any given moment. If it wasn't you driving, you know who. An illegal activity was committed using your tool and you know who did it. They have every right to question you. If you do not know, you testify as such, but then again you need to plausibly explain why was someone operating your car while you were not aware…

> you should be aware of its whereabouts at any given moment Says who? If the car is mine, I am free to do with it whatever I like (of course, excepting criminal acts). I do not owe anybody an account of what I - or the care - did at any particular moment. If the car was used in the commission of a crime, it's up to the prosecution to prove I had something to do with it. If they think I know who did it - prove it and…

But couldn't you then have the same argument for speeding tickets (or parking tickets)? Like, "I don't know who drove my car too fast or parked my car on the curb, so it's not my problem. The state should prove who did it.".

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#193

Post by pixl97 »

tacticalturtle wrote: post #24
embedding-shape wrote: post #2

Seems the fact that it was a "red light camera" is completely irrelevant? The relevant part: > The defendant argued the statute unconstitutionally requires the registered owner to prove they were not driving — instead of requiring the government to prove who was behind the wheel. Bit like having to prove you weren't the one breaking in , rather than the police having to prove you were guilty. In light of this, seems…

The relevant part is that the judge declared traffic ticket proceedings “quasi criminal”: > In the order, the court found that red-light camera cases, although labeled as civil infractions, function as “quasi-criminal” proceedings because they can result in monetary penalties, a formal finding of guilt, and consequences tied to a driver’s record. Which seems to just relabel any fine from the government as a criminal…

>I don’t think it would be crazy to hold me financially responsible if a shooting happens with my gun.

States have had to write laws for this to be a criminal matter. Before then it was a civil matter, but it was individuals against individuals and not state against individuals.

>Which seems to just relabel any fine from the government as a criminal matter?

It wasn't exactly about the fine, but points on a license I believe.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#194

Post by wffurr »

credit_guy wrote: post #169

I know this is not related to the legal merits of the case being discussed, but who runs a red light? In my experience, this is an infarction that occurs very infrequently. Speeding or illegal parking happen all the time, but running a red light? Most people are not suicidal. Edit: Nevermind, I think crossing on yellow and catching a tenth of a second of red counts as running a red light. If it does, it’s something I…

Running reds is a favorite pastime of Boston area drivers. Enter just after the yellow and buzz the pedestrians waiting, lurk in the middle of the road and make a left turn once oncoming traffic is stopped for the red, or just blow it for the hell of it.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#195

Post by seemaze »

litoE wrote: post #181
embedding-shape wrote: post #2

Seems the fact that it was a "red light camera" is completely irrelevant? The relevant part: > The defendant argued the statute unconstitutionally requires the registered owner to prove they were not driving — instead of requiring the government to prove who was behind the wheel. Bit like having to prove you weren't the one breaking in , rather than the police having to prove you were guilty. In light of this, seems…

Florida must be using cheap cameras. My daughter got a red light ticket in Beverly Hills a couple of years ago. They mailed the ticket to her as the registered owner of the car, including the photographs from the cameras which showed that a) she entered the intersection on a red light, b) her car front and back showing the license plates and c) the face of the driver, establishing it was her. From her expression on t…

Same here; tickets always include the photo of the driver. If the photo is unclear or differs from the registered owner, tickets are easily dismissed.

However, I agree with Florida on this; the onus should be not be on the accused to prove innocence after a citation is issued. Feels like a 'call us to unsubscribe' time-wasting dark pattern.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#196

Post by paulddraper »

embedding-shape wrote: post #2

Seems the fact that it was a "red light camera" is completely irrelevant? The relevant part: > The defendant argued the statute unconstitutionally requires the registered owner to prove they were not driving — instead of requiring the government to prove who was behind the wheel. Bit like having to prove you weren't the one breaking in , rather than the police having to prove you were guilty. In light of this, seems…

The article title is: "Judge dismisses red-light camera ticket, rules law is unconstitutional"

Which is better than the HN title.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#197

Post by pixl97 »

bootlooped wrote: post #180
0x3f wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems untenable because I can just lie to you about my intended use. I borrow your hammer to build a cabin. Oops, I actually used it to murder people. Enjoy the millions in damages.

The justice system can generally deal with gray areas like this. For example the parents of school shooters are usually not held liable for the crimes their kids commit. It depends on a lot of variables.

More states are enacting laws that directly charge the parents in these cases.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#198

Post by fusslo »

After reading the 21 page order, I do tend to agree with the judge

The judge frames the red light camera scheme as a revenue generating scheme, not a public safety measure.

Additionally, "A distinctive feature of the statutory scheme is its assignment of guilt to the registered owner rather than the driver of the vehicle". and "If there are multiple registered owners, the citation is issued to the 'first' registered 'owner'". and the person whom the citation was issued to must sign an affidavit that includes the name, address, dob, of the person who was actually driving. The judge says this "...abandon(s) centuries time honored protections of hearsay as substantive evidence.".

"It is a foundational rule of constitutional due process that the government must prove every fact necessary to constitute an offense beyond a reasonable doubt before a person may be adjudicated guilty of a crime".

"Although nominally civil, traffic infraction proceedings retain every substantive hallmark of criminal prosecution..." "under Feiock, such proceedings are sufficiently criminal in form and function to invoke the full protections of due process..." - that's probably the core of the reasoning here.

"Section 316.074(1) provides in relevant part that "The driver of any vehicle shall obey..."" - the driver, not the registered owner.

I highly recommend reading the order. It's easy to follow and aligns with my understanding of the law within the USA.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#199

Post by pixl97 »

mikkupikku wrote: post #160
SoftTalker wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parking tickets don't go on your driving record. They are just a tax on parking improperly.

I thought the same was true of automated red light and speeding tickets too.

No, they are considered moving infractions in many states.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#200

Post by seemaze »

cromka wrote: post #152
pclmulqdq wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have an immunity deal and are asked to testify about a crime you committed under it, you admit to doing it and they can't prosecute you.

Gotcha.

That's what I'd be afraid of
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