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Indifference is a power (2015)

aeon.co

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Re: Indifference is a power (2015)

#191
post #116

My journey with stoicism has been useful and powerful at every phase, but for future and fellow walkers of this path I leave advice: You you a mindful stoic or a dissociated one? I'd argue dissociation, at least in the short term, is a critical part of the process. To not let the gut reactions carry you away. You do often need to realize, those reactions are still often happening. You body does it's own thing and you…

> but if you don't add going back and feeling those emotions to the tools, you are just a timebomb running an emotional debt and dissociating from it What would that entail? I can't imagine e.g. taking some time on Sunday afternoon to feel that panic I suppressed from the crisis on Monday.

> I can't imagine e.g. taking some time on Sunday afternoon to feel that panic I suppressed from the crisis on Monday.

Almost literally that. Revisit the moments that made you "suppress" things. Think of it as a post-mortem. It won't be the same, an echo distorted by time and distance, But pay attention to what you set aside. Suppressing emotions is the short term hack. The ideal is to be able to have them and still be centered. Only way to get better at that is practice.

Re: Indifference is a power (2015)

#192

Mel Robins' popular "Let Them Theory" captures some of the sentiment of Stoicism. https://www.melrobbins.com/book/the-let-them-theory/

Key phrase "captures some of the sentiment of Stoicism". Her book could be cut down to about ten pages. If Books Could Kill reviewed her book in April 2025: "Peter and Michael discuss The Let Them Theory, a self-help guide to seeking bliss through unmitigated complacency." https://open.spotify.com/episode/2RupLQH4eBnUX4mo1zAAFz?si=h...

> Her book could be cut down to about ten pages.

Should I understand that to be a critique?

Re: Indifference is a power (2015)

#193

I don't know how much the modern take on stoicism diverges from its historical origins, but I'm among those who believe that it ultimately pumps a delusion: that one can solve mind aches with mind hacks. Contemplative mystics (e.g. Zen, Dao) can recognize in stoicism some elemental truths --mainly that our emotions tend to be driven by the fiction created by thoughts--, but they also see it as incomplete at best and…

> Where stoicism aims for thought-driven control, mystics know there's none to be found and instead encourage to trust in and to reconnect with our intuitive nature. Allow pain, feel it fully, let it go, and return in the flow.

The idea that thought is also ultimately driven by intuitions is one that stoics would've been quite familiar with. Part of the problem here is a definitional matter: should we restrict our view solely to the negative emotions, or admit that a positive "spirit" also exists in us that's ultimately just as intuitive and emotional? There isn't one single answer AIUI; both views are useful for different purposes, but it's true that a more "mystical" point of view could lead us to the latter. Some of the Stoics do talk about notions like "the good and bad daimon (or genius)" in ways that might somehow hint at the same reality, even though these intuitions are quite hard to understand in a modern context.

Re: Indifference is a power (2015)

#194
> Stockdale rejected the false optimism proffered by Christianity, because he knew, from direct observation, that false hope is how you went insane in that prison.

With all due respect to Stockdale, I wonder what definition of "Christianity" he had in mind. Historic, biblical Christianity doesn't make delusive promises to palliate suffering by implying that it will be brief or underwhelming. Just read the depths that David was brought to in the Psalms, or Job's experience, or the Apostle Paul's. Look at the thousands upon thousands of steeled and joyful Christian martyrs under the persecution by the Roman empire.

Rather the Scriptures again and again plainly tell us to expect suffering - but the remedy goes far deeper than a mere Stoical submission to an impersonal logos in nature. Suffering, contrary to the Stoics, is not natural - to pretend that it is goes against our deepest sensibilities and experience. Rather the Scriptures explain the reason for suffering - it is due to living in a world that is experiencing the consequences of rebellion against its Creator. It should hurt, and denying this places us in an inevitable contradiction.

The Stoics may argue this isn't much different than their own philosophy - both recognize it's a reality one way or another after all. However, Christianity goes on and ascends far higher, both subjectively and objectively. Both speak of the Logos, but the Logos of Christianity is far more than a distant, abstract principle. He is the one who cannot suffer, but who entered into this world of suffering through the Incarnation to redeem men by suffering more than any of them ever will.

Thus Christianity presents a realist's view of suffering - it is common, deep, often bewildering. But Christians _are_ to submit to it as for their ultimate good. Like the Stoic, the Christian accepts it as a refiners fire:

> My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

But unlike the Stoic, the Christian sees the source of it is far more personal, and will bring him to a far greater victory and joy than the best of the Stoics every could achieve.

> For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. ... And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. ... Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

I can understand the draw to Stoicism felt by many today, and respect the movement in many ways, but I think the neo-Stoics overlook a greater philosophy, one which eventually drew in vast numbers of Stoics seeking a better way.

Re: Indifference is a power (2015)

#195

My journey with stoicism has been useful and powerful at every phase, but for future and fellow walkers of this path I leave advice: You you a mindful stoic or a dissociated one? I'd argue dissociation, at least in the short term, is a critical part of the process. To not let the gut reactions carry you away. You do often need to realize, those reactions are still often happening. You body does it's own thing and you…

> In the medium term, if you aren't going back and holding the emotions you set aside, you are doing it wrong. Stoicism sells as "magical no emotion land" but you are flesh and flesh has emotions. Both reasonable and unreasonable. You job is to manage and integrate them effectively. I think it's helpful not to identify with your emotions. You may experience emotions, but you are not your emotions. That's the differen…

That is a dissociating mode, a more mindful one, but still intentionally distancing yourself from your experiences. It works great for improving your perception of yourself and being mindful. Its a meditation.

It also isn't really available in a crisis, in the moment. All our long term work is really to train the anxious idiot part of ourselves who runs the show most of the time how to cope with what the world and body are doing right now. That person is very much connected to their emotions, no matter what story we make up about it. You need practice being that person feeling those emotions as well as practice analyzing them.

Re: Indifference is a power (2015)

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of those rare cases where I believe young men would benefit from reading more Nietzsche. "Do you want to live 'according to nature'? O you noble Stoics, what a verbal swindle! Imagine a being like nature - extravagant without limit, indifferent without limit, without purposes and consideration, without pity and justice, simultaneously fruitful, desolate, and unknown - imagine this indifference itself as a…

This just shows that Nietzsche did not understand stoicism on any deep level

If that's true, then what hope does anyone else have?

Re: Indifference is a power (2015)

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I get older, I read this entirely differently (as an appeal to empathy) than I did when I was younger (as an appeal to stolidity). In other words, you should be pained for your neighbor when his slave breaks his cup. Maybe his grandmother left him that cup, and he's developed many fond memories around which he drank a soothing beverage in that heirloom. That empathy how we connect with people, build meaning, and m…

What treatment of the slave does the broken cup’s provenance justify?

[deleted]

Re: Indifference is a power (2015)

#199
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Just suck it up and power through" I don't feel that is a "undesirable masculine trait", I live by that and still "feel things" and have emotions.

It's not "suck it up and move on", it's "accept the reality as starting point and do what's possible, with calm clear mind"

Memento mori. Death is inevitable but worrying constantly about it, whether your own or your loved ones, is no way to live.

As I get older and as my parents get older I take comfort from that.

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