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Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

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Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#191

Post by fc417fc802 »

exiguus wrote: post #110
eadmund wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I understand that change can be challenging It’s less about change and more about outright breakage. Wayland does not support me. > You have a choice: acknowledge that Wayland is faster, more user-friendly, and more secure, or remain tied to technologies from the 1990s. Wayland may be faster, it’s certainly more secure (in the same sense that a system embedded in a ton of concrete and dropped to the bottom of the o…

I understand your perspective and the challenges you're encountering with Wayland. It's evident that this transition can be difficult for many, particularly when it comes to maintaining compatibility with specific setups and personal preferences, such as your choice of window manager. When selecting technology, I always consider my specific use case. For instance, at work, I need to manage multiple open windows simul…

You've stated the blindingly obvious. The issue is that in certain cases there are not "plenty of tools available" but rather none that work properly. Most of the gaps have been closed by now (AFAICT) but the refrain for at least the past 5 years has been that the issues don't exist rather than acknowledging the glaringly obvious usability problems in an upfront manner.

I'd characterize the wayland ecosystem as only just barely production ready (for typical desktop use) today. I don't think it was ready when I switched to it. As but one example, to this day drag and drop between windows still doesn't work reliably for me (I'm running sway) although it's certainly better than it used to be.

Or consider multi-window usecases seen in scientific computing (among other things) and the active hostility of the maintainers towards standardizing any protocol that would enable an application to actively control layout across multiple monitors (provided user consent, of course).

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#192

Post by fc417fc802 »

queenkjuul wrote: post #179
exiguus wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand your perspective and the challenges you're encountering with Wayland. It's evident that this transition can be difficult for many, particularly when it comes to maintaining compatibility with specific setups and personal preferences, such as your choice of window manager. When selecting technology, I always consider my specific use case. For instance, at work, I need to manage multiple open windows simul…

Has anyone found a real replacement for X forwarding over SSH? it's the one thing i use all the time that Wayland doesn't seem to do or be interested in doing

No, but I think that's a consequence of the design. X forwarding a rectangle of pixels isn't functionally different than running a VNC solution. The removal of all the extra complexity from the new protocol was intentional after all.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#193

Post by eadmund »

exiguus wrote: post #110
eadmund wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I understand that change can be challenging It’s less about change and more about outright breakage. Wayland does not support me. > You have a choice: acknowledge that Wayland is faster, more user-friendly, and more secure, or remain tied to technologies from the 1990s. Wayland may be faster, it’s certainly more secure (in the same sense that a system embedded in a ton of concrete and dropped to the bottom of the o…

I understand your perspective and the challenges you're encountering with Wayland. It's evident that this transition can be difficult for many, particularly when it comes to maintaining compatibility with specific setups and personal preferences, such as your choice of window manager. When selecting technology, I always consider my specific use case. For instance, at work, I need to manage multiple open windows simul…

> this transition

That begs the question of whether there should be or is a transition. From where I sit right now, there should not be and there isn’t. Wayland doesn’t meet my needs (not ‘needs’ in the sense of food and air, of course!) today, despite how interesting it is and despite the genuine improvements it offers in some ways. It may in the future, but until then any transition would be a net loss for me.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#194

Post by jauntywundrkind »

lelanthran wrote: post #182
jauntywundrkind wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, yeah, Nvidia being fundamentally incompatible with open source ecosystems, not having drivers, and having stuff broken sucks and while I think it's pretty pathetic and low-life to not care and not think about that in any way at all, I get that folks are going to stay on X because Nvidia refuses to work with open source. That said, I do think the parent post is probably experiencing a very very rare issue. The…

> I think it's pretty pathetic and low-life to not care and not think about that in any way at all, Was this part really necessary? The people who care more about working software are pathetic and lowlife? Really? > I get that folks are going to stay on X because Nvidia refuses to work with open source. I dunno if you've noticed, but there are one or two other dealbreakers that keep people off of Wayland.

Open source grants folks the right to use however they want at whatever level they want, but yeah, I think it's riding dirty to take take take & not give a lick of thought to the ecosystem or concern for it's overall well-being.

When you said:

> I don't care about the details of why it won't work, I'll just keep using the product that does work.

I see active dis-interest like that as damaging to open source as a whole. It's a mercenary in-it-for-me view, one that's not investing any caring.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#195

Post by LightHugger »

soraminazuki wrote: post #117
Lariscus wrote: post #36

[flagged]

> The main dev, apart from being a reactionary nutjob This is honestly an understatement. Posting antivax conspiracy theories on LKML? Reactionary. Writing anti-DEI rants in his REAMDE and COC files? Reactionary. But this long-winded rant [1] defending WW2 Germany? "Reactionary" doesn't even begin to describe it. Whatever one's opinion on Wayland, his conduct [2] should be a huge red flag to anyone using his software…

Uh, he has a detailed historical view of the forces that caused WW2 and argued that the rest of world powers at the time put germany in a position that was very likely to cause the second world war. woOoOo scary, the only allowed thought pattern is "ww2 germany bad" after all. If you want to debate him on details go ahead, but trying to use this as some kind of cancel-culture fodder is a waste of everyone's brain cells.

Character assassination campaigns like this are so pathetic on so many levels. What you are doing is already worse behavior than what you're trying to accuse him of.

And that you quoted him complaining about the russian developer bans is confusing. Why do you think "not wanting people banned by their country of origin" is a bad thing? What, are you racist?

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#196

Post by lelanthran »

jauntywundrkind wrote: post #194
lelanthran wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it's pretty pathetic and low-life to not care and not think about that in any way at all, Was this part really necessary? The people who care more about working software are pathetic and lowlife? Really? > I get that folks are going to stay on X because Nvidia refuses to work with open source. I dunno if you've noticed, but there are one or two other dealbreakers that keep people off of Wayland.

Open source grants folks the right to use however they want at whatever level they want, but yeah, I think it's riding dirty to take take take & not give a lick of thought to the ecosystem or concern for it's overall well-being. When you said: > I don't care about the details of why it won't work, I'll just keep using the product that does work. I see active dis-interest like that as damaging to open source as a whol…

> I see active dis-interest like that as damaging to open source as a whole. It's a mercenary in-it-for-me view, one that's not investing any caring.

But that's not active disinterest.

I mean, what do you want people to do? Use the product that doesn't work for them?

Do you routinely go out of your way to switch to products that cannot (and will never) do what you need it to do?

Which products are these, that you use even though they can not do what you need?

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#197

Post by boudin »

charcircuit wrote: post #174
boudin wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're talking about Linux here, that has nothing to do with wayland, it's always been like this and unlikely to change.

The other person was talking about Linux. For a Wayland example look at the tight coupling Wayland compositors have with Mesa. It wasn't until 2021 where Nvidia had to be the ones to contribute their own code for being able to dynamically load new gbm backends that weren't already compiled in.

That's a really weird way to look at it. In reality nvidia just chose to not invest in it. This sums it up: https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2016/09/to-eglstream-...

Gnome did land eglstream support by the way, xwayland as well. I think kde too at some point (not sure about that).

Nvidia had a lot of options on the table: - allow nouveau to reclock gpus or, better, collaborate with them so that at least there's one usable driver. - follow the community consensus and go with GBM straight away. Didn't seem to be a problem in the first place as it's what they are doing now. - open source their driver like other manufacturer and be part of mesa.

Community had one option: dedicate a lot of time and effort to create a whole code path for nvidia only and having to debug it against a black box driver

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#198

Post by [deleted] »

LightHugger wrote: post #195
soraminazuki wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The main dev, apart from being a reactionary nutjob This is honestly an understatement. Posting antivax conspiracy theories on LKML? Reactionary. Writing anti-DEI rants in his REAMDE and COC files? Reactionary. But this long-winded rant [1] defending WW2 Germany? "Reactionary" doesn't even begin to describe it. Whatever one's opinion on Wayland, his conduct [2] should be a huge red flag to anyone using his software…

Uh, he has a detailed historical view of the forces that caused WW2 and argued that the rest of world powers at the time put germany in a position that was very likely to cause the second world war. woOoOo scary, the only allowed thought pattern is "ww2 germany bad" after all. If you want to debate him on details go ahead, but trying to use this as some kind of cancel-culture fodder is a waste of everyone's brain cel…

[deleted]

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#199

Post by soraminazuki »

LightHugger wrote: post #195
soraminazuki wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The main dev, apart from being a reactionary nutjob This is honestly an understatement. Posting antivax conspiracy theories on LKML? Reactionary. Writing anti-DEI rants in his REAMDE and COC files? Reactionary. But this long-winded rant [1] defending WW2 Germany? "Reactionary" doesn't even begin to describe it. Whatever one's opinion on Wayland, his conduct [2] should be a huge red flag to anyone using his software…

Uh, he has a detailed historical view of the forces that caused WW2 and argued that the rest of world powers at the time put germany in a position that was very likely to cause the second world war. woOoOo scary, the only allowed thought pattern is "ww2 germany bad" after all. If you want to debate him on details go ahead, but trying to use this as some kind of cancel-culture fodder is a waste of everyone's brain cel…

The only people on character assassination campaigns here are literal Nazi followers rewriting the past trying to depict one of the worst genocide in modern history as an act of "peace." It's legitimate and inevitable that people judge you by your actions, all the more when it comes to what you choose to stand up for. Trying to call that "cancel culture" is just lazy and changes nothing. When someone stands up for Nazis or their defenders and that damages their reputation, that's on them.

Also, trolling LKML doesn't solve racism. Nor does having the Linux project violate sanctions.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#200

Post by charcircuit »

boudin wrote: post #197
charcircuit wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other person was talking about Linux. For a Wayland example look at the tight coupling Wayland compositors have with Mesa. It wasn't until 2021 where Nvidia had to be the ones to contribute their own code for being able to dynamically load new gbm backends that weren't already compiled in.

That's a really weird way to look at it. In reality nvidia just chose to not invest in it. This sums it up: https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2016/09/to-eglstream-... Gnome did land eglstream support by the way, xwayland as well. I think kde too at some point (not sure about that). Nvidia had a lot of options on the table: - allow nouveau to reclock gpus or, better, collaborate with them so that at least there's…

>In reality nvidia just chose to not invest in it. This sums it up

This article is proving my point. People were not willing to work with Nvidia and would prefer to stick to their unstandardized Mesa specific approach with gbm. As a path forward Nvidia tried proposing a cross platform open standard that would solve not only wayland's use case, which to me appears as Nvidia going above in investment.

>allow nouveau to reclock gpus

Nouveau able to if they load the proper firmware onto the GPU.

>at least there's one usable driver

It's quite a stretch to call it usable and would not make sense to be the default experience for the average user.

>follow the community consensus and go with GBM straight away

As I mentioned GBM was tightly coupled with Mesa, so that wasn't directly possible.

>open source their driver like other manufacturer and be part of mesa.

This is an unreasonable demand, that would never happen. Saying that Wayland won't work on Nvidia hardware because they won't open source the driver and port it to Mesa just shows how stubborn and uncooperative one is as opposed to trying to find solutions to deliver user value.

>dedicate a lot of time and effort to create a whole code path for nvidia only and having to debug it against a black box driver

There was never anything nvidia only in this situation. The only "only" was gbm being a proprietary API that was only a part of Mesa.

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