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Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

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Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#171

Post by palata »

eadmund wrote: post #169
em-bee wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that's not fair. window managers are not regular apps. wayland has a different architecture that changes how windows are managed. this also has to affect things like taking screenhots, screen sharing, recording, locking, screensavers, etc. intercepting/sending keystrokes in particular had to be redesigned to make to make it more secure. without that there would not have been a point to wayland at all. your actual app…

> intercepting/sending keystrokes in particular had to be redesigned to make to make it more secure. without that there would not have been a point to wayland at all. Sure, and I really would like to enjoy that security improvement. But would an evolutionary approach have been possible? For example, would it have been possible to start by running Wayland with all programs in a privileged status, then migrate to using…

> It’s still vapourware, in that in 2025 Wayland is still not a drop-in replacement for X11.

If it was vapourware, nobody would find it useful. I have been using it for 4 years, it works. I wouldn't call that vapourware.

Question: how do you feel about systemd? Feels similar to me. Nobody forces me to use systemd (and I don't), but the evolution is such that more and more software assumes systemd and it hurts the minority who is not using it.

In order not to use systemd, I can choose a distro that supports something else. Aren't there distros out there that still support X11? Surely that must exist...

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#172

Post by lelanthran »

jauntywundrkind wrote: post #103
63 wrote: post #55

I'll throw my hat in the anti-Wayland ring. I have a 5-year-old graphics card from the most popular graphics card company in the world. And yet, in 2025, I cannot run Sway/Wayland on my Nvidia 3070 for more than 20 minutes without a crash. i3/Xorg works fine. Wayland just straight doesn't work and the push to move everyone to it looks ridiculous from my perspective.

AMD has great open source drivers that work wonderfully everywhere. Even their old hardware keeps getting amazing upgrades & enhancements, a decade+ latter! Word on the street is Nvidia is doing a much much better job, for a year or so now. But, like, you are using a GPU that sway used to make you type "--i-wont-buy-an-nvidia-gpu-again" and now makes you type --unsupported-gpu to use. It's not Wayland's fault if your…

Meh.

I don't care about the details of why it won't work, I'll just keep using the product that does work.

The number of paragraphs used to explain why the non-working product does not work would be better spent simply pointing people to the working product.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#173

Post by jauntywundrkind »

lelanthran wrote: post #172
jauntywundrkind wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AMD has great open source drivers that work wonderfully everywhere. Even their old hardware keeps getting amazing upgrades & enhancements, a decade+ latter! Word on the street is Nvidia is doing a much much better job, for a year or so now. But, like, you are using a GPU that sway used to make you type "--i-wont-buy-an-nvidia-gpu-again" and now makes you type --unsupported-gpu to use. It's not Wayland's fault if your…

Meh. I don't care about the details of why it won't work, I'll just keep using the product that does work. The number of paragraphs used to explain why the non-working product does not work would be better spent simply pointing people to the working product.

I mean, yeah, Nvidia being fundamentally incompatible with open source ecosystems, not having drivers, and having stuff broken sucks and while I think it's pretty pathetic and low-life to not care and not think about that in any way at all, I get that folks are going to stay on X because Nvidia refuses to work with open source.

That said, I do think the parent post is probably experiencing a very very rare issue. There are plenty of people using Nvidia ⨯ Sway now quite successfully.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#174

Post by charcircuit »

boudin wrote: post #155
charcircuit wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. It doesn't have to be that way. Windows provides a stable interface for drivers for example. 2. Directly contributing code is not the only way to work with someone.

You're talking about Linux here, that has nothing to do with wayland, it's always been like this and unlikely to change.

The other person was talking about Linux. For a Wayland example look at the tight coupling Wayland compositors have with Mesa. It wasn't until 2021 where Nvidia had to be the ones to contribute their own code for being able to dynamically load new gbm backends that weren't already compiled in.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#175

Post by queenkjuul »

Lariscus wrote: post #36

[flagged]

Yeah when I first heard of XLibre i went and saw some of the comments on the maintainer's freedesktop PRs and immediately lost interest in the project.

That was before i even knew they were a Nazi-defending nutcase insistent on dragging politics into LKML.

Frankly hope the project dies. Wayland can't replace X for me yet but I've no confidence XLibre is an improvement on X11 in any capacity.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#176

Post by queenkjuul »

throwaway63097 wrote: post #119
soraminazuki wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The main dev, apart from being a reactionary nutjob This is honestly an understatement. Posting antivax conspiracy theories on LKML? Reactionary. Writing anti-DEI rants in his REAMDE and COC files? Reactionary. But this long-winded rant [1] defending WW2 Germany? "Reactionary" doesn't even begin to describe it. Whatever one's opinion on Wayland, his conduct [2] should be a huge red flag to anyone using his software…

Do you hold the same views that you used to hold six years ago?

Politically? Almost entirely.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#177

Post by queenkjuul »

em-bee wrote: post #64
throwaway63097 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

You'd expect that the changes would've been reverted sooner if that was all there was to it, no? How come they're suddenly a problem? that was my first thought too. if these commits were a problem they should not have been accepted in the first place. was there no review process in place? and if there was no review, isn't that a sign that the project is dead? and if the project is dead what's with the sudden activity…

Go read the discussions on the PRs. The maintainers responsible for the merges admit their mistake in approving them. This is all out in the open if you actually care.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#178

Post by queenkjuul »

petre wrote: post #166
jauntywundrkind wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ignorance is a beautiful shield Against rationality & understanding, little green grasshopper (8 hour old account). The world has no ability to make Nvidia's drivers good. If Nvidia can't build drivers that work, there's nothing we can do about it. Defending a situation where hackers have no ability to improve or work a situation is unhackerly, dumb. Consumers are free to remain ignorant, but this situation of where…

Sure mate, but I guess I'll stick to X if it works, I don't care who's fault is it, nvidia's or wayland's. Life is too short to have a crashing UI interrupt my work.

End of the day people buy Nvidia because they need to (CUDA/AI/ML) not because of ideology or driver architecture. Shit just needs to work and bottom line is no matter who's to blame, Wayland doesn't work for every use case that X does.

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#179

Post by queenkjuul »

exiguus wrote: post #110
eadmund wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I understand that change can be challenging It’s less about change and more about outright breakage. Wayland does not support me. > You have a choice: acknowledge that Wayland is faster, more user-friendly, and more secure, or remain tied to technologies from the 1990s. Wayland may be faster, it’s certainly more secure (in the same sense that a system embedded in a ton of concrete and dropped to the bottom of the o…

I understand your perspective and the challenges you're encountering with Wayland. It's evident that this transition can be difficult for many, particularly when it comes to maintaining compatibility with specific setups and personal preferences, such as your choice of window manager. When selecting technology, I always consider my specific use case. For instance, at work, I need to manage multiple open windows simul…

Has anyone found a real replacement for X forwarding over SSH? it's the one thing i use all the time that Wayland doesn't seem to do or be interested in doing

Re: Long live Xorg, I mean Xlibre

#180

Post by queenkjuul »

jmkr wrote: post #57

A few weeks ago I was looking into `XReparentWindow` because certain things use it (DAW Plugins). I don't think Wayland can do something similar (but I guess XWayland works), GTK and Qt both seem to have their own version. Looking more into plugin libraries, a lot of it is based specifically on X, I don't think that's going to be rewritten anytime soon. I've felt for a while stuck between X and Wayland. Same with Pip…

Agreed. Wayland has things to offer me, just like pipewire; then I actually use it, and find things i rely on don't work properly.

Why in bloody hell is it so hard to persist routing across reboots with pipewire? Why is Wayland turning 17 without a serious replacement for SSH forwarding?

Not that Pulse was ever excellent on that particular point, but it mostly worked without resorting to third party apps or hand writing scripts.

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