Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021) • Hacker News Board

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#191

Post by Qwertious » Fri, Jan 10, 2025, 11:16 PM UTC

peab wrote: post #83

thePhytochemist wrote: post #50

This issue is very relevant for me since I have been homeless since May. It's been a bad run of being a target of criminal activity, unemployment and just running out of money during my job search. I cope with a mix of volunteering, overpriced housing (think $1200/month for a room in a rural area before I ran out of money for that), catsitting, house-sitting, staying with family and sleeping in my ancient car. Althou…

The housing situation in Canada is insane and is so obviously due to not building enough housing and bringing too many people into the country via immigration. The fact that it costs 1200$/month for a room in a rural area is incredibly damning. I went to college in Ottawa, and now I live in Austin Texas. It's similar in size, although Austin has been growing more lately. Curiously, they are also both capitols, colleg…

>and bringing too many people into the country via immigration.

In a functioning economy, more immigration will just result in more housing being built, as long as the immigrants are working. Especially since the cost of housing construction is largely the cost of labor. Immigration is a distraction from the core inability to build more housing.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#192

Post by vasco » Fri, Jan 10, 2025, 11:18 PM UTC

mmooss wrote: post #131

andrewla wrote: post #92

Without digging too deep into the nature of the statistics they use, I'm a little skeptical of this. The transition to using the word "homeless" has resulted in transforming something we can't easily measure -- "drug addicted or mentally ill people being a public menace" -- into something that we can measure -- "people without a good living arrangement". Sure, the latter is important in a lot of ways too. And there h…

You're assuming others share your perspective and understanding. > The transition to using the word "homeless" has resulted in transforming something we can't easily measure -- "drug addicted or mentally ill people being a public menace" -- into something that we can measure -- "people without a good living arrangement". > the former is the actual problem that we care about The word homeless is pretty old, not someth…

> I spend a lot of time in cities and know others who do too. None feel menaced by people who are unhoused - why would that be menacing? - or high. High people generally don't know you are there, and are easily avoided. I've had zero problems; I don't know of anyone else who has

This is completely detached from reality. I find it hard to believe you are being truthful unless you're doing some sort of gotcha where you carry a gun or are some sort of jiu-jitsu master. Here's an example of people being afraid of the homeless and another of drug addicts, just from last year in NYC but there's thousands of examples.

- Why throngs of NYC’s homeless are choosing Penn Station over shelters — and leaving commuters in a constant state of fear https://nypost.com/2024/08/28/us-news/nycs-homeless-cheer-pe...

- Business owners and residents along Midtown Manhattan’s “Strip of Despair” are so frequently robbed and harassed by drug-addled “psychopaths” that they’ve stopped trying to resist — or even bother calling the cops for help. https://nypost.com/2024/06/17/us-news/horror-stories-from-ny...

I don't mean to say with this that ALL of them are dangerous, but you trying to portray that you never even heard of someone being afraid of homeless or drug addicts and the trouble they sometimes create is like saying you don't know which color the sky is. Like you honestly never seen an aggressive person who is high?

Anyway if not, I can tell you I've had a drunk homeless guy throw a bottle at me for no reason other than walking home. The next day I talked to him and now I know Cyril, my local homeless drunk and high Russian guy, and sometimes give him socks, but even he admits that when he drinks and huffs nitrous he gets a bit crazy.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#193

Post by crazyeights » Fri, Jan 10, 2025, 11:19 PM UTC

MichaelZuo wrote: post #168

cousin_it wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, or just unlucky. The goal of my proposal is not to create equality, but to establish a minimum below which people cannot fall.

Who gets to determine the minimum threshold? And how will they enforce it?

Most people have little to no money, hence being without the ability to afford housing. You’re obviously not familiar with the social security system we have in place now. The only thing lacking is the inspiration to escape that system as Medicaid and social security insurance don’t allow for any savings so participants are frightened to lose the only thing keeping them and their family alive. Provide them with housing at no expense, higher education at no expense, and a food stipend and you’ll see a lot more success and a lot less homeless.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#194

Post by darth_avocado » Fri, Jan 10, 2025, 11:25 PM UTC

teractiveodular wrote: post #172

annzabelle wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was responding to the commenter above me discussing the phenomenon of mentally disturbed people sleeping rough and I think that's been a small phenomenon in Finland the entire time due to their different history with mental health, with economic homelessness being most of what they've reduced via housing first. To clarify, I don't know much about Finnish mental health in particular as opposed to the general trends…

Sleeping rough has always been rare in Finland for the simple reason that it gets down to -20 quite often in winter. Freezing to death is not an uncommon fate for alcoholics.

There’s a reason why you have lower homeless population in the temperate zone than in the tropical zone of the world.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#195

Post by Boogie_Man » Fri, Jan 10, 2025, 11:28 PM UTC

mmooss wrote: post #131

andrewla wrote: post #92

Without digging too deep into the nature of the statistics they use, I'm a little skeptical of this. The transition to using the word "homeless" has resulted in transforming something we can't easily measure -- "drug addicted or mentally ill people being a public menace" -- into something that we can measure -- "people without a good living arrangement". Sure, the latter is important in a lot of ways too. And there h…

You're assuming others share your perspective and understanding. > The transition to using the word "homeless" has resulted in transforming something we can't easily measure -- "drug addicted or mentally ill people being a public menace" -- into something that we can measure -- "people without a good living arrangement". > the former is the actual problem that we care about The word homeless is pretty old, not someth…

I'll decide without the slightest moral compunction: If you're addicted to fentanyl and living on the street you're getting involuntarily committed.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#196

Post by daemonologist » Fri, Jan 10, 2025, 11:28 PM UTC

cryptozeus wrote: post #182

Seeing comments from few homeless folks here, I wish you good luck and hope your situation changes. I have a very different image in mind when it comes to homeless people and having to live on roadside let alone afford a phone and time to comment on hacker news.

Phones are pretty cheap, and probably essential for finding work and staying in contact with family/other resources, and I imagine a homeless person has time more than anything else. I'm also a bit surprised at first when I see a post from someone is such a different economic situation here on HN but logically it makes sense. (I recall seeing an engineer in Palestine post in a recent Who wants to be hired? and I tread similar thoughts.)

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#197

Post by Qwertious » Fri, Jan 10, 2025, 11:28 PM UTC

IncreasePosts wrote: post #144

Groxx wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do however seem to be implying "this won't work because some won't go along with it, therefore we should not do it ". In which case you're essentially saying "meth users decide everyone's housing status".

No, that is not what I'm saying. Notice, I never said we shouldn't do anything. I'm saying reaching the state of "no homelessness" is dependent upon finding something to do with the worst of the homeless. For a tech analogy, imagine you've architected a system that has 99.5% uptime. You might be able to imagine a way to get to 99.9% up time. With enough resources, you might even be able to get to 99.99% uptime. With…

Is anyone here saying we need to reach literally 0% homelessness? Reducing current numbers by 99% would be amazing.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#198

Post by blktiger » Fri, Jan 10, 2025, 11:29 PM UTC

peab wrote: post #83

thePhytochemist wrote: post #50

This issue is very relevant for me since I have been homeless since May. It's been a bad run of being a target of criminal activity, unemployment and just running out of money during my job search. I cope with a mix of volunteering, overpriced housing (think $1200/month for a room in a rural area before I ran out of money for that), catsitting, house-sitting, staying with family and sleeping in my ancient car. Althou…

The housing situation in Canada is insane and is so obviously due to not building enough housing and bringing too many people into the country via immigration. The fact that it costs 1200$/month for a room in a rural area is incredibly damning. I went to college in Ottawa, and now I live in Austin Texas. It's similar in size, although Austin has been growing more lately. Curiously, they are also both capitols, colleg…

At least some of the difference is that building codes can be a lot more lax in Texas as compared to Canada. It rarely gets as cold, and certainly not for as long.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#199

Post by cousin_it » Fri, Jan 10, 2025, 11:30 PM UTC

somethoughts wrote: post #179

cousin_it wrote: post #106

I think governments should offer free housing to everyone who asks, in their city of choice. "But why should taxpayers pay for that? It's expensive!" Yes, it would be very expensive. But you know what's even more expensive? The sum of everybody's lowered wages, bad bosses, fear for the future, fear of having kids and so on, due to the threat of homelessness. Yes, building housing is expensive, but the removal of fear…

I think the challenge is that some will use it as a jumping of point to change their lives and some will use it to stick to their poor lifestyle habits and expect the provider of the housing to provide free house cleaning, free maintenance and free meals and in exchange be a community nuisance. The latter ruins it for the former. As a taxpayer, I would be willing to provide free housing in a lower cost of living area…

I think it's still much better for a country to have a bunch of untidy annoying people housed for free, than to have the same bunch of untidy annoying people live on the street and serve as a constant reminder to everyone: "keep working and don't annoy the boss or you could be homeless too".

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#200

Post by cyberax » Fri, Jan 10, 2025, 11:31 PM UTC

peab wrote: post #83

thePhytochemist wrote: post #50

This issue is very relevant for me since I have been homeless since May. It's been a bad run of being a target of criminal activity, unemployment and just running out of money during my job search. I cope with a mix of volunteering, overpriced housing (think $1200/month for a room in a rural area before I ran out of money for that), catsitting, house-sitting, staying with family and sleeping in my ancient car. Althou…

The housing situation in Canada is insane and is so obviously due to not building enough housing and bringing too many people into the country via immigration. The fact that it costs 1200$/month for a room in a rural area is incredibly damning. I went to college in Ottawa, and now I live in Austin Texas. It's similar in size, although Austin has been growing more lately. Curiously, they are also both capitols, colleg…

> The result? I'm looking at 2 bedroom apartments, and they are 1000$ cheaper than they were 3 years ago when I first moved here. Rent has gone down and continues to go down. I'm seeing studio apartments in the middle of the city renting out for 800$ now!

That's not a result of new construction. It's a result of the Austin population declining in absolute numbers: 978,763 in 2019, 975,418 in 2022. It bounced back a bit to 979,882 in 2023.

Travis County grew a little bit, but all the growth is in the suburban areas.