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DIY B&B

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Re: DIY B&B

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a private matter that should be determined by your contract. Can't tell if joking..

I am not. The GP said that having too many renters increases the risk of property damage (which is very true), to which you replied (essentially) - why worry, let them damage, the insurance will pick the tab - to which I said that it's the actual damage, not the cost of repairs that is an issue.

Rules regarding the rental of private property to a private party is a private matter in my opinion. Private parties already regulate the user of communal property thru vehicles such as a HOA. If you have a condo then the HOA can decide if renting is appropriate. Having the government dictate how your property can be used is more disturbing than having to attend a HOA meeting. Sure, you might agree with this particular regulation, but how about when the other political party takes power and decides they want to use your property differently. No thank you.

Re: DIY B&B

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that your very sensible demands, for a sanitary kitchen and proper fire escape, can be seen to by market forces. Only rent AirBnB places whose reviews convince you they are appropriate. You can not be the only one who feels as you do. And with a new market like this, where people would not reasonably expect the automatic protection they ostensibly enjoy at traditional hotels, it is all the more plausibl…

And I would respond that history has repeatedly demonstrated that market forces will not see to proper fire escapes or sanitary kitchens. If market forces had been adequate, we would not have such laws today . Moreover, the type of people who would pay extra for a sanitary kitchen or a proper fireplace are not the type of people who would use AirBNB (or similar services) in the first place.

* If market forces had been adequate, we would not have such laws today.*

The problem here is what you mean by "market forces".

For a market to be truly open, free and efficient, buyers and sellers must be able to enter into transactions without hindrance. There must not be an overhead associated with transactions, and buyers need relevant information. People rail on "free markets" when really they miss the point. Unless the market is also open and efficient, being free doesn't amount to much.

In the past, you'd call a telephone number in New York and reserve a hotel. You had no relevant information about your purchase -- yes, you probably assumed a lot, such as "hotels in New York are nice" but you really didn't know. The market was open -- anybody could play.

So you ended up in a flea trap in a high-crime neighborhood and the manager took all of your money. You complained, and New York took action (Note that I'm making a generous case for regulation here. You could make a case that most regulations were the result of trumped up charges by monopoly players) People had no idea of what they were getting into. There was a lot of money and perhaps lives wasted due to people making deals in which they were unaware of the consequences. The market was not efficient.

What New York was doing, in a way, was creating a brand as a way to increase efficiency at the expense of market freedom. So when people came to New York they would know generally how hotels would treat them. This increased the amount of knowledge the buyers had, so it made the market more open. (But less free)

But that is _somewhat_ an outdated model. Note in my story I specifically said I was able to compare or contact previous tennants, look at the property on a satellite map, check references, and so on. The internet has made the market vastly more efficient. I no longer make a blind phone call and then show up and see what I get. There's still risk, of course, but the risk is distributed throughout the system. One bad actor steals 2 or 3 people's payment, then that property is effectively blacklisted. In a way, the penalties on the sellers is much more harsh than it used to be under the old system.

So this isn't an argument about free markets or some kind of laissez-faire capitalism. What we're talking about is simply what's necessary for people to trade efficiently. For many things (but not all) we simply don't need the same kind of government guarantee that we used to.

The problem was never in "market forces". It was in creating efficient markets. We've made some progress on that problem since those rules were enacted. We don't have to tear down all the rules, but we should at least acknowledge changing conditions. I'd argue in this case existing rules exist much more to protect vested interests than anything else, but that's just me.

Re: DIY B&B

#193
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Airbnb is a future threat to the hotel industry. I'm sure they recognize that. Most people are potential "hotels". This will keep rates low AND attract new entrants (because some money is better than no money). Airbnb rooms are usually more pleasant than the lower quality hotels a lot of businesses book. Once it becomes socially normal in larger corporations, a lot of employees will ask to be booked with airbnb.

> Airbnb rooms are usually more pleasant than the lower quality hotels a lot of businesses book. I suggest you browse areas with high AirBNB usage. In NYC, a nice AirBNB will cost roughly the same as the equivalent hotel room. > Once it becomes socially normal in larger corporations, a lot of employees will ask to be booked with airbnb. This is unlikely. The only reason to choose AirBNB is price, and the low price op…

My argument isn't based on price. Some people will always prefer hotels. You know exactly what you're getting.

Others prefer the airbnb experience, even at the same price. You get to meet new people, cook your own food if you want (anyone eating a special diet wants this), you often get to stay in a smaller building.

Some people hate all that stuff. But less than 100% of current hotel bookers. Enough people love what airbnb offers that this should start making a difference at the margins.

NYC may have more problems. I'm in Montreal, where there are a lot of renters but few horror stories.

In any case, the airbnb review system is getting better. People will learn how to avoid the dumps.

Re: DIY B&B

#194
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Airbnb is a future threat to the hotel industry. I'm sure they recognize that. Most people are potential "hotels". This will keep rates low AND attract new entrants (because some money is better than no money). Airbnb rooms are usually more pleasant than the lower quality hotels a lot of businesses book. Once it becomes socially normal in larger corporations, a lot of employees will ask to be booked with airbnb.

> Airbnb rooms are usually more pleasant than the lower quality hotels a lot of businesses book. I suggest you browse areas with high AirBNB usage. In NYC, a nice AirBNB will cost roughly the same as the equivalent hotel room. > Once it becomes socially normal in larger corporations, a lot of employees will ask to be booked with airbnb. This is unlikely. The only reason to choose AirBNB is price, and the low price op…

My argument isn't based on price. Some people will always prefer hotels. You know exactly what you're getting.

Others prefer the airbnb experience, even at the same price. You get to meet new people, cook your own food if you want (anyone eating a special diet wants this), you often get to stay in a smaller building with its own style.

Some people hate all that stuff. But less than 100% of current hotel bookers. Enough people love what airbnb offers that this should start making a difference at the margins.

NYC may have more problems. I'm in Montreal, where there are a lot of renters but few horror stories.

In any case, the airbnb review system is getting better. People will learn how to avoid the dumps.

Re: DIY B&B

#195
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Airbnb is a future threat to the hotel industry. I'm sure they recognize that. Most people are potential "hotels". This will keep rates low AND attract new entrants (because some money is better than no money). Airbnb rooms are usually more pleasant than the lower quality hotels a lot of businesses book. Once it becomes socially normal in larger corporations, a lot of employees will ask to be booked with airbnb.

Everything you say here is obvious; you are making the obvious case that the big bad hotel industry is conspiring to shut down Airbnb. Anyone on HN would, if asked to advocate the position that hotels were conspiring against Airbnb, make exactly the same case. I'm saying: I doubt that's what's happening. I've heard too many anecdotal stories about complaints, and am too capable of looking at (a) revenue numbers for h…

I didn't say the hotel industry is behind the laws. I have no idea what's begin them.

I said, I'm sure some people in the hotel industry recognize airbnbs potential threat. I was responding to your first paragraph. I should have been clearer.

Re: DIY B&B

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's the contract law remedy for a tenant in a building whose unscrupulous landlord has decided to dump his spare inventory onto Airbnb as an ad hoc hostel? Demand a no-hostel clause at signing. It's silly, but there's your answer. And BTW, having lived in a truly rent-controlled (1/5th market rate) place before, "go ahead, break the lease! woohoo!" is all your landlord says anyways.

And so your remedy, when your landlord, who has promised you an apartment for a year at a specified price, is to move apartments , and then spend 2 years chasing them in court? Incidentally: I sued a landlord once a few years ago over a very simple issue (they unlawfully withheld my security deposit) and did not pull "2 years" out of my butt.

Inadequate enforcement of contracts is a separate debate. But living somewhere with strong tenant laws helps. For instance, where I live, people can (and do) sue their landlord for damages when their quality of life is affected by the landlord breaching some part of the lease.

Re: DIY B&B

#197
post #26

I guess I shouldn't be surprised at the negative reaction to this here. The HN demographic is presumably tilted towards young men. What those criticisms seem to be neglecting is that those--particularly for apartment buildings--these temporary visitors impact beyond just you. In Australia, for example, one useful metric used by people when assessing apartment buildings to buy in is to look at the ratio of owner-occup…

I list my apartment on airbnb and my considerations aren't as divorced from those of my neighbours as you're making out. Most people care about where they live. I don't want my apartment trashed by people using it as a place to party for a couple of days just as much, if not more, than my neighbours don't. I've had dozens of people stay at my apartment through airbnb and they've all been respectful, fantastic guests. I always look through their profiles and reviews before letting them stay, it's a far cry from operating a brothel or crack den. I'd bet my neighbours know less about their cleaners than I do about my Airbnb guests before they arrive.

Re: DIY B&B

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I would respond that history has repeatedly demonstrated that market forces will not see to proper fire escapes or sanitary kitchens. If market forces had been adequate, we would not have such laws today . Moreover, the type of people who would pay extra for a sanitary kitchen or a proper fireplace are not the type of people who would use AirBNB (or similar services) in the first place.

* If market forces had been adequate, we would not have such laws today.* The problem here is what you mean by "market forces". For a market to be truly open, free and efficient , buyers and sellers must be able to enter into transactions without hindrance. There must not be an overhead associated with transactions, and buyers need relevant information. People rail on "free markets" when really they miss the point. U…

> Note in my story I specifically said I was able to compare or contact previous tennants, look at the property on a satellite map, check references,

Cool. Do you check for "Number of patrons who've died in a fire"? Because having working smoke detectors, or adequate fire escapes, are not the kind of things that work for market forces.

Re: DIY B&B

#199
post #44

In some vacation places, such as Monterey, it's illegal to rent a house/apartment for less than a month without a hotel license. These laws predate AirBnB by decades.

Doesn't seem too difficult to get a 'free' license and pay the occupancy tax. I've stayed in various beach rentals along the California coast for 2 weeks at a time and have been charged occupancy tax. http://www.co.monterey.ca.us/taxcollector/TOT.html

At that link, you'll see "Monterey County Planning and Building Inspection Department requires Homeowners wishing to pursue short term residential rentals (7-30 days) to obtain an Administrative Permit."

In other words, you can't just pay the tax.

On http://www.mcar.com/montereycounty.html, we find:

County of Monterey Non-Coastal: Administrative permit required for rentals less than 30 days in R-1 zoning district Minimum rental period 7 days Zoning Ordinance 21.64.280

Coastal: Contact: Planning and Building Inspection Department (831) 883-7500

I'd guess that the county is easier to deal with on this than the various cities (where the hotels and the bulk of the housing are).

Re: DIY B&B

#200
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has little to do with the reasons for regulating food, and everything to do with the means. In order to keep me from buying soda, you have to forcibly come between the peaceful and free association of me and another person. You're not going to convince me that I would still buy raw milk, or that pasteurized milk would be unavailable, in the absence of FDA regulation.

How would you know if you were buying raw or pasteurized milk if there were no food labelling regulations obligating people to label it accordingly?

Just like I do now. I look for milk labeled "pasteurized" and make sure it's from a trusted vendor/brand or has a trusted certification.

There's a competitive advantage to labeling food, and there's no stopping companies from labeling food in the absence of food labeling regulations. The most trusted organic certification is from a for-profit certification company, Quality Assurance International. McDonald's published nutrition information before it was required by any law. Intentionally incorrect labeling is already covered by fraud and tort law.

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