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US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

arstechnica.com

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Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#191

Post by jbooth »

tptacek wrote: post #165
dpeck wrote: post #155

It is anything but confirmed. Arstechnica writes an article about an article in the NYT (a paper that doesn't have the best track record reporting about cyber events and control system security issues to begin with) that cites no credible sources. Also, you don't "lose control" of something like this, it was designed with many ways to spread. If control was lost it was during the spec/coding phase, not after deployme…

When the New York Times prints: “Should we shut this thing down?” Mr. Obama asked, according to members of the president’s national security team who were in the room. It is generally safe to assume, whether you admire the NYT (like me) or don't (like 'patio11), that there's an actual source with a credible claim to have been in the room with the President who did in fact tell David E. Sanger that this happened. Peop…

Why's it depressing? It seems like it worked, and any failure would have been much less spectacular than US operatives being caught breaking into Natanz.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#192

Post by jbooth »

jpxxx wrote: post #184
underdown wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not having sufficient evidence to prove something is happening is not quite the same thing as proving it isn't happening.

Let me be clear: there is no evidence whatsoever that Iran has nuclear weapons in its possession. There is no evidence whatsoever that Iran has had an organized nuclear weapons development program for the last nine years. There is some evidence that there was a nuclear weapons program prior to 2003. This is where you start discussing things: with reality and facts. I am insulted that these facts I am offering are bei…

I don't know why I'm jumping in, but.

Iran is enriching uranium. A lot of it. This is not disputed.

Iran rattles their sabre a lot, and has large domestic oil production, both of those are also undisputed.

... So you're saying you believe their story that they're enriching uranium beyond where it needs to be for nuclear power, just so they can have nuclear power? Even though they already have more oil than they can sell (with sanctions in place)? Why would they do that?

If I were in their place, I'd be going for a nuclear weapon. All of the available evidence points towards their going for a nuclear weapon. If this was just about nuclear energy, why wouldn't they play ball with the international community and save a shitload of money? Nobody costs themselves billions in sanctions in order to lose more millions in energy production by using nuclear instead of burning effectively-free oil.

You're not being downvoted because you're offering "facts", you're being downvoted for offering an unsupported opinion that people don't agree with.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#193

Post by tomjen3 »

ascendant wrote: post #51

I'm going to take the contrarian view here. If Iran had gotten to the point of enriching uranium to weapons-grade levels and Israel had done a pre-emptive strike, that would have gotten messy real fast. More messy than this. Disabling their centrifuges in a way where presumably no one died doesn't sound so bad to me considering the alternative. Again, just the contrarian viewpoint.

Thats is because Obama is a pussy. He doesn't have the guts to put Osamas head on a stake, dipped in pigfat, and he doesn't have the guts to tell Israel no.

Just remind them that we are the reason you exist and we can and will withdraw that support when we want to.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#194

Post by kbolino »

webXL wrote: post #166
kbolino wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Terrorist victims in 2001: 3,000 Murder victims in 2001: 15,000 Car collision fatalities in 2001: 42,000 Cancer deaths in 2001: 550,000 The only thing that's disproportionate is how we react to terrorism. (statistics are for United States)

Terrorist victims in 2001: 3,000 ... Cancer deaths in 2001: 550,000 I don't think it's fair to the families of the victims, to the people of NYC, or any peaceful, healthy person who has that threat in the back of their mind when minding their own business in public, to equate a cancer death with a death caused by a crumbling skyscraper, a burning skyscraper, or jumping out of a burning, crumbling skyscraper. I know c…

Neither is any less dead than the other. The cause matters only to the living. My entire point is that fear of the threat in the back of your mind is entirely irrational. You're much more likely to die of cancer, and even then, you're not very likely to die at all.

The Stalin quote about "a single death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic" comes to mind here. I understand your point that terrorism is the result of direct, willful action by people with malicious intent, whereas cancer is just a force of nature. But you have no real control over either, so why make such a big deal of the former?

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#195

Post by wissler »

sk5t wrote: post #182
wissler wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"No open hostilities" is a definition by non-essentials. It's fallacious. As I already said and as you failed to address. Whether certain people happen to know whether there is an attack or who is behind it does not change anything. A state of knowledge does not change the reality: someone is planning and attacking.

If I had a downvote button, I would exercise it on your steadfast refusal to acknowledge that the Cold War is so-called for the absence of direct military conflict between the armies of the two quarreling states. Wikipedia does not back your definition, as the Wiki entry leaves room for espionage, sabotage, and other actions that one might consider an "attack" but certainly do not force a declaration of war, mobiliza…

Sabotage is not "indirect", it is very direct, and what's more, it's not even listed on Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_war_(general_term)

You're wrong, but at least you're not a coward.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#197

Post by dantheman »

Symmetry wrote: post #122
dantheman wrote: post #103

How is this not an act of war? Doesn't congress need approve military actions of this sort?

No, the president would need Congressional approval to have military units in Iran for more than 90 days. In practice presidents almost always ask Congress for advance approval, since having to pull out in the middle of an invasion would be rather embarrassing. The only exception that comes to mind is Reagan's invasion of Grenada, where the US military was in and out easily under the time limit.

Another exception is Libya where they're not considering it a military action.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#198

Post by brown9-2 »

dpeck wrote: post #155

It is anything but confirmed. Arstechnica writes an article about an article in the NYT (a paper that doesn't have the best track record reporting about cyber events and control system security issues to begin with) that cites no credible sources. Also, you don't "lose control" of something like this, it was designed with many ways to spread. If control was lost it was during the spec/coding phase, not after deployme…

the NYT (a paper that doesn't have the best track record reporting about cyber events and control system security issues to begin with)

Do you have any citations for what you are referring to here? I'd like to read more about this topic (and the NYT) if you have the info available.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#199

Post by ChuckMcM »

hieronymusN wrote: post #41
ck2 wrote: post #28

It's a new cold war. Eventually Iran will write viruses in return to attack US power grid. All fun and games until Homeland Security Theater is given new powers to raid your home and shoot your dog if they think your computer is being used as part of a botnet.

This isn't nearly as terrifying as the Cold War with the USSR. We're not threatened with nuclear war, nor having the near misses that could trigger it (Cuban missile crisis). No one is building bomb shelters in their backyards, because right now the balance of power is very much in the United States' favor. Could things get there with another nuclear enabled power like China? Maybe, in time. Iran is not an existentia…

I am probably in a minority but I find it more terrifying than the Cold War. At least in the Cold War when the balloon went up everybody died. In this scenario we could be alive and under increasingly onerous affronts on our civil liberties. During the Cold War I might have been called up to attack and kill Soviets, if internal threats were used to install a police state I would be called up to attack and kill my own government. Not a good choice, just ask the folks in the middle east that have been called to do that.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#200

Post by tsotha »

duaneb wrote: post #167
tsotha wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So... someone involved is going on the record? Someone who can do interviews on, you know, Fresh Air and say "I was involved in this project"? The fact that the NYT thinks it's true doesn't mean much, particularly since they've been punked so many times.

With politicians involved, this kind of article (i.e. a reputable leak) is more dependable.

Reporters make up unnamed government officials all the time. While I agree the scenario they're painting isn't difficult to believe, calling it "confirmed" is going too far.
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