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Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

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Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#191

Post by Ajedi32 »

anfilt wrote: post #170

A huge problem is the DMA falls short in addressing a significant violation of property rights concerning the hardware. At the core of property ownership lies the right of exclusion – the ability to exclude or include something on one's personal property. This right is quite important and can even be used to derive most other property rights; please see the linked paper at the bottom. However, Apple's policies with i…

Yeah, this is the fundamental issue at play here. I don't care what fees or rules Apple puts in place for developer access to its app store. I care that I'm digitally restricted from running anything other than software approved by Apple on my device. If that problem was solved and Apple had to compete with other app stores on a level playing field, that would naturally resolve any issues with their rules or fee structure.

The DMA (seemingly) didn't target root of the problem, so Apple was able to easily just sidestep the legislation by saying "okay, you can use alternative app stores now, but the app stores and all software on them still has to be reviewed and approved by us, and we're going to continue to impose conditions (including payment) on that approval". If they had been completely stripped of the ability to exclude software from my device, then they wouldn't have the leverage to impose these new rules in the first place.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#192

Post by LtWorf »

menacingly wrote: post #36

This is a complicated issue. On the one hand, I tend to have a generally unfavorable view of apple. I don't like closed systems, oversimplified to the point of missing critical settings UX, etc. That said, I really don't understand the issue with their cut, or insisting on handling payments. In the vast majority of cases, these are not your customers. These are apple's customers they have given you access to. If the…

> Also, I do wonder if EU flies a little close to the sun with this stuff. You can't legislate that someone lose more money than they gain with access to your market.

This makes no sense. If you were right there would be no android phones sold in europe because the conditions are so bad for the manufacturer. That, however, doesn't seem to match with reality at all.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#193

Post by burnerthrow008 »

brightball wrote: post #115
menacingly wrote: post #36

This is a complicated issue. On the one hand, I tend to have a generally unfavorable view of apple. I don't like closed systems, oversimplified to the point of missing critical settings UX, etc. That said, I really don't understand the issue with their cut, or insisting on handling payments. In the vast majority of cases, these are not your customers. These are apple's customers they have given you access to. If the…

Jason Fried (Basecamp) really explained this in great detail recently. https://twitter.com/jasonfried/status/1743421673871929723

The main thrust of his argument seems to be that developers should be able to engage in price discrimination. That's cool and all, but it seems anti-competitive to me as a customer. I don't want to pay more just because I don't have time to write each developer and beg for a discount. Remember, Amazon famously had to back down from advertising different prices to Americans in urban and rural areas due to customer backlash.

While I partially sympathize with the ostensible desire to be able to offer great customer service under the guise of refunds for unexpected downtime in SaaS apps, it's hard to see how this won't be abused by developers: Won't every app just offer App Store refunds to convert customers to 3rd party payment?

I suspect that's the actual reason these things are wanted. I completely understand that many people think 30% is too high (and maybe it is!), but it's hard to see how 0% isn't too low.

What would be his reaction if Apple enabled all these customer service options he supposedly wants, but at a cost to the developer? For example, a code for first-responders to download the app for free, but the developer still pays 20% of the store price. Or a customer refund, where Apple keeps 20% instead of 30%. After all, it's not about the money, but actually about offering great customer service. So he'd go for that, right?

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#194

Post by surgical_fire »

menacingly wrote: post #36

This is a complicated issue. On the one hand, I tend to have a generally unfavorable view of apple. I don't like closed systems, oversimplified to the point of missing critical settings UX, etc. That said, I really don't understand the issue with their cut, or insisting on handling payments. In the vast majority of cases, these are not your customers. These are apple's customers they have given you access to. If the…

> These are apple's customers they have given you access to.

Absolutely not.

Let me give you a hypothetical example - I pay for Jetbrain Ultimate. I use it in the MacBook for work. If OSX was as closed as iOS, I would magically turn into Apple's customer?

They are just the OS I am using (not even my own choice).

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#195

Post by dudeinhawaii »

pdonis wrote: post #116
the_solenoid wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like your takes on this. To me, theres two issues: 1) this push is all driven by big businesses looking to just get free money for nothing, which is why I worry that the EU is so taken up with it. 2) taxes, is you want to line apples 30% up with those, are just part of business. No, you cant write off the 30%, but if you want to keep adding 250million new phones to your potential customer base every year.... wtf, p…

> I am sure Apple and MS would love to do this with desktop, but the ship sailed on that ages ago, and probably wouldnt have ever worked. Charging third party app developers never worked on the desktop, but Microsoft had a lot of success with building the key features of popular third party Windows applications into their own products, thus taking away the third party developers' markets. Which is worse for the third…

You've posted this same strawman like 5 times in the comment threads. How about sticking to the thread you were on and debating the push-back others have made? Is this a new astroturfing strategy?

If both Apple and other companies have engaged in taking away a 3P developer market by building their product features into their own, then what is the point of your whataboutism? You're trying to imply that paying a fee is better than having your product copied -- when in fact the comparison is 'pay a fee AND risk product copy/delisting' vs 'no fee, no delisting, risk product copying'. Stop trying to obfuscate.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#196

Post by LtWorf »

menacingly wrote: post #113
ametrau wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

30% is just too much and they don’t give anything near enough value for devs or App Store consumers.

Traditionally, when faced with something that isn't a good deal, you don't buy it.

But they kick developers that show the users how much apple is taking. How can people judge if it's a good deal or not if they don't even know what the deal is?

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#197

Post by c0balt »

pimterry wrote: post #163
menacingly wrote: post #36

This is a complicated issue. On the one hand, I tend to have a generally unfavorable view of apple. I don't like closed systems, oversimplified to the point of missing critical settings UX, etc. That said, I really don't understand the issue with their cut, or insisting on handling payments. In the vast majority of cases, these are not your customers. These are apple's customers they have given you access to. If the…

> In the vast majority of cases, these are not your customers. These are apple's customers they have given you access to. This is problematic argument, that imo we should not accept in _any_ commercial context. * Are people browsing the web on an iPhone Apple's customers, and therefore 30% of web sales should be collected too? * If you use Comcast to access the internet, are you Comcast's customer? They're giving the…

> * Should your headphones take a cut of all music streaming revenue, and refuse to play non-compliant music?

The RIIA Speakers, they only work with certified music software and automatically redirect a proportional a cut of your subscription payment to labels. /s

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#198

Post by snowpid »

arthurofbabylon wrote: post #71

This is a rather misleading headline. The vast majority of developers are not in “open revolt” – just a handful of developers are making a lot of noise about it, while continuing to ship software (ie, not in revolt at all). Further, those developers making great noise are often close to “platform” designation themselves, making their appeal less righteous than a superficial reading might have you believe. It’s a stru…

You are pleased => Majority is pleased? Can you show data? your app? Is Apple in competition with you like Spotify and Apple Music?

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#199

Post by FirmwareBurner »

015a wrote: post #173
sib wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Windows" didn't sell them a computer. Microsoft sold an OS to - for example - Dell, who then sold a computer to the user. So they are Dell's customers. And Dell, for sure, earned a lot of money selling placement on the Home Screen (or pre-installation) to 3P app developers. (Of course, there are also computers such as the Microsoft Surface, but these represent a tiny fraction of the universe of Windows computers eve…

1. Microsoft does sell users a computer. Sometimes. Surface devices represent about 10% of all desktop computers. 2. Apple also sells Macs, where developers can access "Apple's customers" unencumbered, without needing to play by Apple's rules (developers may also opt-in to a lower-form of "playing by Apple's rules" by submitting their apps to Apple for notarization, or naturally, they may also opt-in to the Full Rule…

>Surface devices represent about 10% of all desktop computers.

Really, Surface has THAT MUCH?! I honestly doubt it. I think I've only seen 4-6 surface devices in the wild in my life(in Europe). Maybe in the US they have 10% market share.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#200

Post by LtWorf »

frizlab wrote: post #186
arthurofbabylon wrote: post #71

This is a rather misleading headline. The vast majority of developers are not in “open revolt” – just a handful of developers are making a lot of noise about it, while continuing to ship software (ie, not in revolt at all). Further, those developers making great noise are often close to “platform” designation themselves, making their appeal less righteous than a superficial reading might have you believe. It’s a stru…

I am too. I’m tired of the virulent minority making like they’re the majority (on this subject or others)

Ask the users: "Would you rather pay less or more?"… see where the majority stands :D
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