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Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

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Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#111

Post by acdha »

Digit-Al wrote: post #93
theshrike79 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You really think people won't blame Apple when Little Timmy spends $10k on diamonds on a mobile game they got from an alternate store and Apple won't refund it because, you know, not their store?

But, for little Timmy to buy diamonds in a mobile game from an alternate store he would have to install the alternate store then "borrow" his parent's credit card to register with the new store. If "little" Timmy is pulling those sort of shenanigans then I suggest his parents have bigger problems and they probably won't blame Apple at all.

Now think about this scenario: the parent approves installation when asked because they didn’t realize it was an open ended financial commitment, and because like most people they associate app stores with curation which prevents abuse.

When they get a huge bill 6 months later, or after the game company is acquired, etc. the first thing they’re going to ask is why nobody warned them. That’s the point of these dialogs - to make the importance of the decision harder to miss.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#112

Post by thomastjeffery »

snapcaster wrote: post #32

I think something missed when these issues are discussed on sites like this is just how ignorant of computing the average user is. What would be obvious for us "oh it's not from official app store, so I know to apply extra scrutiny" isn't even describable in most people's mental model of computers/smartphones. I don't want my loved ones getting scammed or hacked by people utilizing these new "freedoms". Why can't all…

So the solution that you propose to this "security problem" is to make sure all software is downloaded through the app store.

...the app store that requires AP devs to pay Apple 30%. That's... convenient.

There is nothing wrong with using a package manager to guarantee the source of your software. That's what every major Linux distro has been doing since forever!

The problem is that Apple gets to play dictator with their package manager, and vainly call any alternative (that doesn't pay them and cater to their politics) "a virus".

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#113

Post by menacingly »

ametrau wrote: post #105
menacingly wrote: post #36

This is a complicated issue. On the one hand, I tend to have a generally unfavorable view of apple. I don't like closed systems, oversimplified to the point of missing critical settings UX, etc. That said, I really don't understand the issue with their cut, or insisting on handling payments. In the vast majority of cases, these are not your customers. These are apple's customers they have given you access to. If the…

30% is just too much and they don’t give anything near enough value for devs or App Store consumers.

Traditionally, when faced with something that isn't a good deal, you don't buy it.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#114

Post by danShumway »

graeme wrote: post #83
danielvaughn wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see more symmetry in the relationship between Apple and developers. It's true the platform was created out of thin air, but without the apps in the app store, it's fair to say the iPhone would not have been nearly as successful. All the dedication and work that developers put into their platform has resulted in millions of applications available on their store - that's what gives it it's value. Obviously there's no…

If this is true, why does Android not set their pricing at 5-10% or less, get more developers and outcompete apple? Google would then pay apple less in search default fees to boot. Android has been losing market share to apple globally for nearly a decade, in particular amongst the richest, most valuable customers. Developers are very valuable to apple but the field isn’t obviously unbalanced. The apple App Store is…

> If this is true, why does Android not set their pricing at 5-10% or less, get more developers and outcompete apple?

You have discovered duopolies. It's not like Google isn't being sued for anti-competitive smartphone behavior right now.

Okay to be fair, that's a somewhat dismissive answer, it is slightly more complicated. Google uses Android more as an advertising platform than as a product on its own. Their goals are slightly orthogonal to Apple's and taking full market share or capturing high-paying users (especially users who are advertising-adverse and prefer to pay for apps) is not necessarily the most important thing in the world to Google.

As a point of reference, we're all fighting over the app store, but Google pays Apple more per-year to be the default search provider in Safari than Apple makes from the entire iOS app store in a year. All of the noise Apple has made... over less profit than they make with a single transaction from Google. This should tell you something about where Google's priorities lie and about whether or not the company really cares about seriously competing with iOS. Google is willing to expend enormous resources and to spend enormous amounts of money... about things they care about.

Google gets enough developers to compete with iOS in general, they don't really need to do more. And because of that they'll charge what they can. Sure, maybe Google could do something radical and transform the market, but why would they? It's not what Google is here for, they're here to get your data and then advertise to you and Android is just one mechanism out of many that Google has to do that.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#115

Post by brightball »

menacingly wrote: post #36

This is a complicated issue. On the one hand, I tend to have a generally unfavorable view of apple. I don't like closed systems, oversimplified to the point of missing critical settings UX, etc. That said, I really don't understand the issue with their cut, or insisting on handling payments. In the vast majority of cases, these are not your customers. These are apple's customers they have given you access to. If the…

Jason Fried (Basecamp) really explained this in great detail recently.

https://twitter.com/jasonfried/status/1743421673871929723

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#116

Post by pdonis »

the_solenoid wrote: post #91
menacingly wrote: post #36

This is a complicated issue. On the one hand, I tend to have a generally unfavorable view of apple. I don't like closed systems, oversimplified to the point of missing critical settings UX, etc. That said, I really don't understand the issue with their cut, or insisting on handling payments. In the vast majority of cases, these are not your customers. These are apple's customers they have given you access to. If the…

I like your takes on this. To me, theres two issues: 1) this push is all driven by big businesses looking to just get free money for nothing, which is why I worry that the EU is so taken up with it. 2) taxes, is you want to line apples 30% up with those, are just part of business. No, you cant write off the 30%, but if you want to keep adding 250million new phones to your potential customer base every year.... wtf, p…

> I am sure Apple and MS would love to do this with desktop, but the ship sailed on that ages ago, and probably wouldnt have ever worked.

Charging third party app developers never worked on the desktop, but Microsoft had a lot of success with building the key features of popular third party Windows applications into their own products, thus taking away the third party developers' markets. Which is worse for the third party developer than just having to pay a fee or a percentage.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#117

Post by summerlight »

menacingly wrote: post #36

This is a complicated issue. On the one hand, I tend to have a generally unfavorable view of apple. I don't like closed systems, oversimplified to the point of missing critical settings UX, etc. That said, I really don't understand the issue with their cut, or insisting on handling payments. In the vast majority of cases, these are not your customers. These are apple's customers they have given you access to. If the…

> That said, I really don't understand the issue with their cut, or insisting on handling payments. In the vast majority of cases, these are not your customers. These are apple's customers they have given you access to.

This looks like a very interesting argument. When you retain full control on access to a specifically defined set of customers (or relevant market), we call it monopoly. You should never have such a single powerful entity in a properly regulated, successful free market.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#118

Post by pdonis »

oatmeal1 wrote: post #55
menacingly wrote: post #36

This is a complicated issue. On the one hand, I tend to have a generally unfavorable view of apple. I don't like closed systems, oversimplified to the point of missing critical settings UX, etc. That said, I really don't understand the issue with their cut, or insisting on handling payments. In the vast majority of cases, these are not your customers. These are apple's customers they have given you access to. If the…

> These are apple's customers they have given you access to. What would happen if this had been the standard applied to Windows? > If the arguments were "these restrictions are so burdensome I can't be in the app store!", that's a different conversation. But they tend to be "I can access such an irresistible amount of customers via apple, I just wish I could take those benefits à la carte. For some developers, they a…

> What would happen if this had been the standard applied to Windows?

Microsoft had no problem taking features from popular third party Windows applications and building them into their own products, basically stealing the third party developers' markets. That looks worse to me than what Apple is doing.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#119

Post by smoldesu »

snapcaster wrote: post #53
_visgean wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine if you said the same thing about computers: why do you need to install sw from anything but Microsoft store? Why can't you sideloader people need a different browser than Internet Explorer?

Exactly! I would tell those people to use Linux, not sue Microsoft to change their operating system

"Exactly! I would tell those people to use another telephone, not sue Bell Systems to change their phone network"

"Exactly! I would tell those people to find another supplier, not sue Standard Oil to change their business tactics"

"Exactly! I would tell those people to ride a different rail, not sue Pacific Railway Co. to change their train routes"

- Monopoly apologism, through the centuries

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#120

Post by menacingly »

danShumway wrote: post #97
menacingly wrote: post #36

This is a complicated issue. On the one hand, I tend to have a generally unfavorable view of apple. I don't like closed systems, oversimplified to the point of missing critical settings UX, etc. That said, I really don't understand the issue with their cut, or insisting on handling payments. In the vast majority of cases, these are not your customers. These are apple's customers they have given you access to. If the…

> In the vast majority of cases, these are not your customers. These are apple's customers they have given you access to. This is just such a radically different way thinking about platforms than the way that I think about them. It's like saying that I owe Facebook for the privilege of talking to my college friends because "they're not my friends, they're Facebook's users and I've been given access to them." It's har…

(I honestly wish I could so clearly order my thoughts in writing like you have done here)

That it is mutually beneficial is sort of my point. If every developer jumped ship, iOS would be in trouble. But they won't. They absolutely will not. It's a humorous hypothetical. So I'm not the only one viewing the platform users as an asset. So is everyone clamoring to reach them.

It's not being an evil monopoly merely to have built the most desirable thing. Android exists today. It doesn't have anywhere near the access to the people who spend money. Apple spent decades cultivating that access, and they're in an extremely strong position because of it.

I hate the app store, it's a lazy mess. I hate Apple's deliberate crippling of the open web to stifle competition. That's probably far more fruitful ground for legislative action. But setting a price for what you can choose to either buy or not buy from them seems wildly within the bounds of what they're allowed to do.

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