Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors • Hacker News Board

Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors

#191

Post by GFischer » Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 8:21 PM UTC

adrianhoward wrote: post #147

GFischer wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm 31, and I have coworkers in their late 30s and early 40s, working in a large multinational with legacy systems. The truth is, while it doesn't get that much mentally harder to learn new technologies, it is very hard psychologically. For someone used to a large paycheck, to being the go-to guy in the technology and set in their 9-to-5 ways, to get out of their comfort zone, and admit that what they know is no long…

So, rather than update themselves and make up all that lost ground from getting too comfortable, they'll try to keep in place the old legacy systems only they can maintain. The flip side of that problem is dealing with the bright young things of all ages who thinks it'll be a couple of weeks work to rewrite that COBOL legacy app in in Clojure/MongoDB. Y'know - the one that's been correctly doing the interest payments…

Heh, that Forte app I was talking about? Plenty of people thought it would be "easy" to replace parts of it... at least two projects failed, I succeeded replacing part of it with a .NET program (the data entry part). Every new manager thinks about replacing it, and then realize it's insane.

Now we're looking at buying a proven software package - even though its price will be in the millions of dollars, it's better than trying to build it ourselves (I estimated three million dollars for an in-house project, and a big chance of failure, most certainly not satisfying user's expectations).

Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors

#192

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 8:26 PM UTC

nirvana wrote: post #8

He seems to have missed making the point in the title. Why would software engineers work for english majors? He thinks that a 20 something english major is a better manager for a software engineer than a 40 something software engineer? Plus he seems to completely miss a separate alternative for software engineers over 35-- start their own businesses. I think the perception that 40 year olds are not up to date on tech…

[deleted]

Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors

#193

Post by lucisferre » Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 8:40 PM UTC

chris_wot wrote: post #98

lucisferre wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you may be seeing a bit of a confirmation bias. Naturally with any group of people who stick it out in one company for a long time you are going to see "lifers". These people are complacent in there careers. They know they aren't getting fired and they are happy not going anywhere. As a result these people are not naturally life long learners either. I wouldn't use 40 something developers in a large multinati…

I'm not really sure I can agree that .NET isn't leading edge. For instance, it's been implementing dynamic language support, LINQ, and ASP.NET MVC is no slouch either. As a framework, I'd say that it's actually pretty advanced.

What I mean is that .NET as a culture and ecosystem is not full of people who embrace leading edge. Though, since you bring it up, as far as features it still isn't leading anything, just following reasonably close to a lot of others.

Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors

#194

Post by edanm » Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 9:07 PM UTC

patio11 wrote: post #33

How many English majors are still in "English" at age 40? Many of them will have exited the workforce , started their own business, changed careers, or leveled up high enough that their occupational classification the government uses changes. Programmers do all these things, too. I love programming. I didn't even make it to thirty as a "programmer"! (P.S. There exist lots of benefits to not calling yourself a program…

I know that "don't call yourself a programmer" is advice you often give. So let me ask you a question - I'm now starting a freelance company. We are 3 programmers. Right now, we build web and mobile applications for hire.

What should we be doing to "rebrand" ourselves in a way that will get us more money?

I ask this here and not in email in the hopes that your answer will help other people as well.

Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors

#195

Post by eumenides1 » Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 9:29 PM UTC

This article is very short sighted and tries to address an issue that cannot be solved by the tools he has.

Let's start with the title. "Software Engineers Will Work One Day for English Majors".

How about "Software Engineers Will Work One Day for someone" because those two options are basically the same except that one is flame bait.

You have two pills you can choose from: Red pill is entrepreneurship; Blue pill is salary/contract. The red pill is the only way for above title to not be true. Blue Pill means you'll be working for someone. Either pill is fine it comes down to personal preference.

Ignoring entrepreneurship (because this article isn't the place for it); the article states that by age X, we will price ourselves out of a job because the newer model is the shinier model. So you shouldn't or be aware that there is a glass ceiling when becoming an engineer.

I'm going out on a limb here but, that is the wrong way to think. You are out of a job at age X because you've been sitting on your degree for 10+ years! Go F'n learn something and demonstrate that you are better and deserve that role + salary increase. You work for that "English Major/Human/H1-B Visa" person because they worked harder than you and stole your lunch.

Here is a real solution: Create/Find/Get a master’s degree in leadership & management for people with a technical background. These technical people need the soft skills it takes to make it to the next level. Getting rid of a H1-B visa program doesn’t solve the problem; it is just a stop gap.

In the end, you just need to update and learn new valuable skills.

Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors

#196

Post by thoughtpalette » Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 9:32 PM UTC

spatten wrote: post #149

GFischer wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm 31, and I have coworkers in their late 30s and early 40s, working in a large multinational with legacy systems. The truth is, while it doesn't get that much mentally harder to learn new technologies, it is very hard psychologically. For someone used to a large paycheck, to being the go-to guy in the technology and set in their 9-to-5 ways, to get out of their comfort zone, and admit that what they know is no long…

This is going to sound more dramatic than it was, but here's one way of summarizing the last five years of my life: I was 35, working at a great job as a physicist. Amazing team (I was usually the dumbest guy in the room), amazing project, but I was bored. I knew that if this didn't make me happy, I needed to get out. I read a few PG essays, caught the startup bug, and started coding in the evenings. Within 8 months,…

This. Always push yourself to learn.

Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors

#197

Post by alecco » Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 9:51 PM UTC

xenithorb wrote: post #122

alecco wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 2 years and a lot of classes later, I'm realizing I'm too old to compete at this gig No, you're not. You have the wrong teachers and wrong texts. In the contrary to what popular posts say, it takes a long time, years, to be a good programmer. You need to be able to be self-critic, completely change the way you do things. Many times. Pick a decent open source project in something you find interesting. The harder and…

I like your support because you gave me some very clear goals to work with. I will consider doing all of them. What I'm struggling with now, since I'm still an lower-division undergrad trying to make my way into a BS program, is do I continue on and persue this - perhaps getting a meaningless part time job in the meantime to supplement my income? Or, do I just go full speed ahead and try and apply for some very entry…

If your education is paid, I'd finish it. Try to make the best out of it but don't let it consume you.

Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors

#198

Post by chaostheory » Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 9:53 PM UTC

jlarocco wrote: post #187

chaostheory wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"They couldn't wait to transition to newer stuff because the old languages were so difficult." I think this is just yet another really poor excuse for not learning something new, which further reinforces my point. There's no reason that any of them couldn't learn something new right now and years before. It's not like the middle class can't afford a really powerful computer. They've been affordable ever since the lat…

Okay, maybe I didn't make it clear. The problem isn't that people weren't learning new stuff. Everybody knew the newer languages - how else would they know they wanted to use them? Unfortunately, not everybody can drop everything and re-implement a large system in a trendy new language.

> how else would they know they wanted to use them?

By reading blog posts and articles about new 'hotness'. I often want to use something without having previously used it.

Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors

#199

Post by chaostheory » Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 9:56 PM UTC

adrianhoward wrote: post #189

chaostheory wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Most people in their forties who are still cutting code have been through three or four 'fashionable' languages" I'm not sure where you're located, but in my experience even in Silicon Valley this is very rare. Most of the older engineers are either all about C++ or Java. A few may tinker a little with a new language, but they rarely take a risk to do more serious work with them. Moreover, many of them just transiti…

I'm not sure where you're located, but in my experience even in Silicon Valley this is very rare. Most of the older engineers are either all about C++ or Java. My context: I'm UK based, but I know a fair number of US folk. I'm in my forties and most, but obviously not all, of my friends are 30-60. The point I was, somewhat poorly, trying to make is that in my experience it's equally common to find a single language f…

> The point I was, somewhat poorly, trying to make is that in my experience it's equally common to find a single language focus with folk in their twenties.

I definitely agree with that. My point is that newer devs tend to know newer languages that are in vogue. Eventually the cycle repeats itself once these 20 somethings get older. I've already seen this happen to most programmers that I personally know with very few exceptions.

Re: Software Engineers Will Work One Day For English Majors

#200

Post by drucken » Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 11:11 PM UTC

ucr wrote: post #167

over40guy4 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt many 40+ programmers are going to come out in support of this article. In cases of discrimination, you are labeled a crybaby so it's better to just stay quite. HN is mostly young and the only 40+ ones here are the type who like puzzles or in top 1 percentile of programming (e.g. patio11). For a vast majority of 40+ programmers, the reality is as grim as painted in this article. If you are not in top 1 percent…

Given that there isn't a puzzle/test type of way to rank managers False. The test is: how much money did your team make? (For the truly crafty, the test is: how much money did your team make relative to the initial investment and risk?)

You reveal a short-termist Anglo-Capitalist bias.

This is not how good managers are assessed in other forms of capitalism or business.

Consistent long-term business growth is far more important in some, e.g. in Germanic and Scandinavian countries.

In general, you could say a good manager meets the targets that have been set by higher management, whatever they may be.

Yes, I am a manager.