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Make Apps for Linux

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Re: Make Apps for Linux

#191

Post by creesch »

whartung wrote: post #187
creesch wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Java simply has a much higher barrier of entry. Not only in regards to figuring out the language and resources available but also the fact that creating a GUI still requires external dependencies. Electron isn't just cross platform, it is cross platform based on technologies (html, css and javascript) that also by a huge margin have the largest amount of developers available.

> Not only in regards to figuring out the language and resources available but also the fact that creating a GUI still requires external dependencies. What external dependencies does Java need that's not in the JDK itself? I have an app with Mac and Windows installers (and thus bundles JDKs), it also runs on Linux (via a fat jar), I tested it on Ubuntu, but for the life of me I couldn't figure out how to package it p…

> What external dependencies does Java need that's not in the JDK itself?

I mean that it doesn't come with Java itself, but you as a developer need to pick a UI framework and not all of them actually work all that well cross platform or will get you an actual modern interface.

Edit: I should also note that the threshold for entry I am talking about is for people just generally starting out. There simply are way more resources available for web related development than there are for java.

Also, when you start bundling your JDKs I am not sure you can talk about a smaller footprint anymore.

Re: Make Apps for Linux

#192

Post by curt15 »

beebmam wrote: post #26
rubymamis wrote: post #20

The problem is OSS software not even trying to compete with the market. People using OSS software taking it for granted that the UX is going to be subpar, and it really is. Regular propriety software faces the risk of their users not paying, therefore adapting to make end user experience great. OSS usually doesn't have that risk. Open source needs to be exposed to risk from end users. I tried to change that with Note…

The CLI is peak UX for anyone technically competent.

The best CLI will never have the discoverability of any competently designed GUI.

Re: Make Apps for Linux

#193

Post by deafpolygon »

zlg_codes wrote: post #188
deafpolygon wrote: post #12

This is one of the biggest issues holding the Linux platform as a whole. It's often cited as a strength, but I don't see it as such. Many times, the plethora of choice is pushed forward by devs as an advantage of Linux ("you have so many choices to pick from!") but for many users this presents the paradox of choice - and pushes many people back to the platform they came from. You get less choice on macOS and Windows,…

This is a problem that is meant to be solved by distros. People who don't want many choices should be using a distro that makes a bunch of choices for them, instead of pushing to remove choice from the ecosysytem altogether. Everybody using the same software creates a monoculture which is more prone to attack than a diverse ecosystem. There's a reason Windows was targeted so much by viruses: not only was the target B…

> People who don't want many choices should be using a distro that makes a bunch of choices for them, instead of pushing to remove choice from the ecosystem altogether.

You don't need to remove choice to push better UX and software. It's not a zero-sum game here; we can foster better conversations with people in the Linux community and start talking about what would make the experience better for the average user, not just technically proficient power-users.

> Everybody using the same software creates a monoculture which is more prone to attack than a diverse ecosystem.

That's wrong - you're using a sort of strawman argument. What makes Windows a monoculture? There's a much larger, thriving developer community on that platform with many more developers making free and/or open-source software.

> You're going to have a harder time of that if you target Linux.

"Achkshully..." Linux has had some serious bugs, but the damage was relatively low to end users because of it's low adoption rates. It has very little to do with "Linux is more secure because we're diverse" and everything to do with "1% of end users use Linux, so the target is less likely to be worth my time." And furthermore, that 1% - the majority will be more technically proficient and less likely to be tricked into running arbitrary software.

> one normie's Windows machine

This. Is. The. Problem. Framing an end-user as a mentally deficient 'normie'. Why? What's the point and what's to be gained from this?

> And who are we to tell someone what they should do with their volunteer time?

No one is suggesting we tell hobbyists / volunteers what to do with their time. What people are suggesting is that we spend a little time talking about tackling common problems together, rather than re-inventing the wheel every single time.

Re: Make Apps for Linux

#194

Post by curt15 »

worksonmine wrote: post #88
IshKebab wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Utter nonsense. The CLI lets you do complex custom things that you sometimes can't do with a GUI. But it is pretty awful from a UX point of view. Terrible discoverability, terrible UI, very unfriendly, no contextual help, etc. etc. I can't think of a worse interface from a UX perspective.

The manual exists for a reason. I find it much easier to type `man program` then `/whatever` until I find what I'm looking for rather than scanning the screen for the correct icon. There are also some conventions and after a while you get to a point where it's intuitive to use any new program. Just like with a GUI and icons, what does the wand do?

That assumes that you can already articulate the action you are looking for in the program's vocabulary. For people who think more pictorially, they may have a sense of what they want but benefit from visual cues.

Re: Make Apps for Linux

#195

Post by fragmede »

zer0zzz wrote: post #135
fragmede wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chrome/Chromium is quite standardized, across many distros.

Name one distro that ships with chrome out of the box? I dont even think ubuntu comes with a chromium browser. That means devs cant write apps against it and just hand out exes like they do on Mac and windows.

Chromium is the default browser on Raspberry Pi OS.

Re: Make Apps for Linux

#196

Post by zer0zzz »

charcircuit wrote: post #190
zer0zzz wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Name one distro that ships with chrome out of the box? I dont even think ubuntu comes with a chromium browser. That means devs cant write apps against it and just hand out exes like they do on Mac and windows.

Play Protect Certified Android and ChromeOS are popular ones among consumers

Nice. Maybe more desktop distros should build on android as a core. That could solve a lot of problems.

Re: Make Apps for Linux

#197

Post by zlg_codes »

deafpolygon wrote: post #193
zlg_codes wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a problem that is meant to be solved by distros. People who don't want many choices should be using a distro that makes a bunch of choices for them, instead of pushing to remove choice from the ecosysytem altogether. Everybody using the same software creates a monoculture which is more prone to attack than a diverse ecosystem. There's a reason Windows was targeted so much by viruses: not only was the target B…

> People who don't want many choices should be using a distro that makes a bunch of choices for them, instead of pushing to remove choice from the ecosystem altogether. You don't need to remove choice to push better UX and software. It's not a zero-sum game here; we can foster better conversations with people in the Linux community and start talking about what would make the experience better for the average user, no…

It's how the Bazaar model of development works. You're free to join a Cathedral and follow their policies if you want.

Re: Make Apps for Linux

#198

Post by zlg_codes »

michaelmrose wrote: post #109
deafpolygon wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right and this holds the platform back. I'm all for hobby development- I've been an supporter of open source software for over 2 decades. But nothing much has changed since that time in terms of UX and user-friendliness. (Yes I am aware a lot of things have changed, but as much as things have changed - much of it is still the same.)

It doesn't hold the platform back because if the hobbyist didn't scratch his own itch he was never going to spend 1000x as much development effort creating a Photoshop competitor or even yet join the effort to triage gnome bugs. We would almost certainly just be less their contribution for no benefit. This whole faulty analysis relies on treating open source developers as a fungible resource like employees of a firm…

Agreed. If I couldn't write my own packages for my OS and scratch my own itch, I'd never bother contributing to the big stuff.

The appeal behind libre software is the power to go your own way. If the only way to access it was to interact with groups and get your things added through a political process, I'd have found some other thing. Too much of our world is wrapped up in processes and busywork and other empty interaction, it's a waste of time.

Give me the code, the license, a text editor, and a nice cup of coffee, and I'm good. Hold the interpersonal drama. :P

Re: Make Apps for Linux

#199

Post by worksonmine »

IshKebab wrote: post #183
worksonmine wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The manual exists for a reason. I find it much easier to type `man program` then `/whatever` until I find what I'm looking for rather than scanning the screen for the correct icon. There are also some conventions and after a while you get to a point where it's intuitive to use any new program. Just like with a GUI and icons, what does the wand do?

"You just have to read the manual" and "you get used to it" are basically synonyms for "the UX is bad". 1 second of googling: https://fstoppers.com/opinion/stop-telling-people-read-manua... I'm sure there are better articles if you search more. If you have time for a book, I highly recommend "The design of everyday things". If you don't agree with me that book will change your mind.

You get used to it as in "used to how CLI programs are usually designed". Just as you get used to what the select icon in a GUI does. Without any prior experience in any both seem like alien technology, but coming from GUI to CLI you have the bias of already knowing one when comparing.

People claim macOS is intuitive and everything works the same, but I'm handicapped in it. I just call it inexperience not being bad UX.

Regarding the manual, does GUI programs have a unified way to access guides and documentation? Can I scroll to the bottom with G and find the configuration files and example uses?

Re: Make Apps for Linux

#200

Post by mikrotikker »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #151
zer0zzz wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Java is objectively terrible for writing good apps on modern personal computers. The one platform that did adopt it (android) had to practically rework the entire byte code and VM as well as the set of APIs for writing apps to make it work.

Why is it terrible? Asking for real.

It's got more security holes than Swiss cheese.
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