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Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

especiales.eldiario.es

191–200 of 457 posts

Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#191
post #97

Spain also has the lowest fertility rate in Europe at 1.28. Not sure how much apartment living is cause or effect on that but it's a grim number. Every generation is only 60% the size of the one that came before it.

This is slightly aside, but the concerns over fertility rates in the first world really seem REALLY misplaced to me. Population growth concerns are easily mitigated with immigration which will stay in demand until the rest of the worlds fertility rates catch up(40+ years), and the population growth concerns themselves are a reflection of an outdated (or soon to be outdated) economic model that we should probably focu…

you're acting as though an immigrant from any of the dense population centers has the same impact as a native-born child on the culture and economy. that is false. sometimes it's for the better (in America, we have many well-educated immigrants from India and China). sometimes it's for the worse (see Europe's struggles with uneducated muslim immigrants from north Africa and the Middle East).

importing large groups of people sometimes works; we did it pretty well in America because we had so much room to grow. transportation and communication were also much harder, so it was less easy for people to maintain ties to their former country and family there; they adapted a little more, though ethnic ghettos were still a problem.

it's not an intractable problem but saying "just get immigrants bro" isn't really a good solution. we are sometimes biased in the US because we are selective (too much so, I think). we bring in the best from high-population areas like Africa and India and we see benefits for that. on the other hand, while migrant working and a moderate level of illegal immigration are fine and even economically beneficial, it would be silly to deny that the current levels are causing severe problems. when you lose that selectivity and control, things don't turn out so well. and to import enough people to make up for falling birthrates we would have to broaden our horizons beyond skilled workers.

Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#192
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed :) Living too far away from any metropolitan area makes me feel claustrophobic as there is usually very little social groups active in my favorite hobbies/niches unless near a city.

You really should look up the meaning of "claustrophobia"

Claustrophobia feels like the right word to me; suburban life feels like being trapped in whichever tiny little patch of land is yours, hemmed in on all sides by not-yours, not-welcome, keep-out places belonging to other people. Such places feel especially confining to those who cannot drive.

Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Spanish love the noise is my theory. They are a very social people. They probably think of it as comforting versus annoying, and like the person that lives next to the waterfall that can't hear it, it probably fades into the background of their consciousness. (I lived in Spain for two years.)

> The Spanish love the noise is my theory Totally. I think to them it represents and demonstrates liberation, freedom, fun, family and community. Loud means fun to them. People complaining about noise are seen as serious party-poopers.

Spaniard here. No, it depends. The Castilles can be pretty silent/quiet/calm compared to Andalusia and the Eastern coast.

Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Noise is the largest complaint my spouse has with dense buildings. I tune things out easily, but I also found myself self conscious about walking softly when I lived above people.

Me too. What's annoying is it seems hard to tell what it's going to be like before you actually move in. I've lived in a few different flats in the UK, all purpose built flats. I already knew flats in converted houses are generally terrible. I've been in some where you can hear everything your neighbour is up to. I'm not sure what's worse: hearing them or knowing they can hear you too. In two of them I could never he…

> And this is despite the building having solid concrete floors that appear to be over a foot thick.

The noise is coming in through the holes made to put plumbing - especially district heating.

In my current apartment the owner wanted to conceal the piping, so he hid it behind an enclosure made out of plaster with a service hatch.

The whole thing is currently a resonance chamber that lets me follow my dowstairs neighbour's conversations.

Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might be “grim” due to demographic skew in terms of age over the long term.

you don't like old folks?

not particularly, no. while the "boomers ruined the economy" trope isn't all right, neither is it all wrong. they effectively mortgaged much of the future value of the country and extracted it.

now "old folks" in question are demanding a lavish retirement at the expense of me and those who are currently young despite the fact that when they funded something similar for their grandparents, the proportional burden was radically lower. a society that would significantly burden the future of its young (and therefore its own future) to cash out the olds smacks of a ponzi scheme and is hideously distorted.

what's more, elder care sucks dollars from investing in interesting industries (colonizing space, growing our industrial base, new computing technologies) to mindless nonsense. instead, those dollars will go to building bingo halls.

Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't seem like cities need to coerce anyone to live in them. But when visiting cities it is better for the city, it's inhabitants and their visitors if they don't bring their negative externalities along from elsewhere.

They do need to coerce people for funding, which might as well be the same thing. That’s like saying “people aren’t forced to attend public schools” - well yeah, but by forcing them to pay for it anyways you leave many with little other option. Meanwhile a quarter of American roads are private. Private transportation would exist with or without force. And in anything other than a big city, private transportation cont…

Care to provide link proving your assumptions? Every time I checked stats for that for some particular country it was always cities subsidizing countryside/suburbs, not vice versa.

Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#197
i'm glad they're happy but that sounds actually terrible. infinitely worse than living on a large plot of land with trees and a garden, having a nice shop to work in, a comfortable home office, a spacious kitchen, plenty of space for cars. i honestly can't see how people prefer this; i am assuming at this point it's cope and/or people who are trying to gaslight everyone into preferring it for policy/environmental/political reasons.

Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#198
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious to hear what sort of economic models you have in mind that works with a non-growing or declining population

We can look at "prosperous" (let's find some happiness index) countries that have seen declining population for a while. Japan comes to mind. It's not like Japan deteriorated into some extreme poverty because of it, right? So maybe it's not that bad, "to be in decline" (in population number, or related GDP), as we are meant to believe?

give it time, they will have issues taking care of their aging population without a sufficient number of people of age that can provide economic output and care. It's a problem that eventually fixes itself but until we work through the "backlog" it will be pretty painful.

Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#199
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, yes, Americans are uncivilized barbarians who fight and are raucous at all times. Great to see that European colonialist spirit alive!

compared to japanese, yes, definitely, 100% how much piss and shit and trash and grafitti do they have in their public transit system

How about compared to Europeans? Japanese have a totally different nearly pseudo-feudal culture that enforces submission and conformity ("the nail that sticks out gets hammered down"). Among western states which share a more individualist culture with the US, I don't think there's all that much difference in behavior.

Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in a modern mid-rise in Dallas. Same experience. Most noise comes from people in the hallways because a solid wood door does not insulate sound. Traffic noise could be improved with triple pane windows, but really it's just un-restricted mufflers that penetrate, and that should be handled by the city.

Just a tip for anyone dealing with noise in a multi-tenant situation. Get yourself a white noise machine. It's a life changer. I thought I was going to murder my neighbor with his own leaf blower until I got it.

I find that a thunderstorm soundtrack hides external noise better than white noise. It also seems psychologically more relaxing, but YMMV
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