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70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

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Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#191

Post by nabakin »

cpursley wrote: post #184
cpursley wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suspension of civil rights is NEVER okay in democratic societies. If you suspend them, you’re no longer democratic - Period.

Oh, and I forgot they took full control over media and have greatly restricted speech.

Yes. As happens in every single existential war because it is necessary to survive. It is truly a dark time when it's more important to suspend rights than to keep them, but that is what an invasion does. It shifts priority from more privileged things like having a good life, to trying to survive so that you can have a life in the first place. It might be hard to imagine coming from a life of peace, but this is one of the many reasons why war is despicable and why Russia should never have started it. The blame falls squarely on Russia's shoulders imo.

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#192

Post by ReptileMan »

dogma1138 wrote: post #189
ReptileMan wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>At some point something had to give which is now why you have decades of Erdogan. What gave was the usual brilliance of Brussels. The generals were plotting to kill him on national TV as they usually did, but around 2005-6 EU leaders started pearl clutching about religious freedom and how Turkey would never enter EU if not human rights or similar bullshit - so Turkey is still outside of EU, no chance of getting in,…

It’s laughable that people blame the EU for Turkey’s regression. 2nd the 3rd generation Turks in the EU are amongst Erdogan’s most radical supporters, Erdogan got a far greater share of the overseas ballots from EU member states than he did back in Turkey, in fact the only two countries where the opposition had a lead were the UK and US. Turkey always had a demographic problem, just like Iran does, it’s not in the EU…

It was about EU meddling in Turkey affairs. If the army had dealt with Erdogan in the early 00s the secular faction of Turkish society would still be on top.

Of course the EU votes would go to Erdogan - the people that moved to Germany were from his power base demographic.

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#193

Post by _kbh_ »

cpursley wrote: post #182
_kbh_ wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The same Ukraine that’s disbanded all opposition political parties They didn't though, they only disbanded the political parties that had ties to Russia, the country thats currently trying to invade and annex them. > suspended elections and is under martial law? The elections are suspended per their own constitution. They are under martial law because they are in a war.

Can't have those pesky ethnic Russian Ukrainians voting wrong now, can we?

> Can't have those pesky ethnic Russian Ukrainians voting wrong now, can we

I think it’s more to do with the difficulty of conducting elections during an active war zone.

I’m also not sure how those ethnically Russian Ukrainians feel about Russia after all Russia has done to them.

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#194

Post by thephyber »

cpursley wrote: post #150
thephyber wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the same Ukraine that is still actively at war for its existence after being invaded by a nuclear superpower. The capital is still being bombed, the democratically elected leadership is still under threat of assassination, so many of those infringements upon freedom are actually reasonable.

Suspension of civil rights is NEVER okay in democratic societies. If you suspend them, you’re no longer democratic - Period.

“Is never okay” is not a rational argument in any philosophical or legal framework. You are projecting theoretically pure ideas into the real world where they don’t exist in any pure form.

Ukraine was Soviet Socialist for most of the 20th century, so any positive democratic movement is an improvement. In 2014, the people overturned a highly Russia-aligned and corrupt government (for which Russia invaded Crimea and fomented a rebellion in the Donbas). Zelenskyy was elected on a populist anti-corruption platform (again, further movement towards democracy).

The party bans you mention happened within a month after Moscow invaded Ukraine with eyes on the capital. And every single banned party was Socialist-leaning + most likely closer aligned with Russia than Ukraine. Again, not exactly a huge regression when it comes to democracy. The sad fact is that Ukraine has never been highly democratic. The post-2014 trend is towards more individual freedom and less government corruption (as far as I can tell, not speaking the local language).

Your standards are a great example of “perfect should not be enemy of the good”, much like the original US Articles of Confederation, which only lasted a few years.

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#195

Post by leereeves »

jltsiren wrote: post #190
leereeves wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany had no history with stable democracy. The Weimar Republic was a short-lived, unstable disaster and before that Germany was ruled by the Kaiser (emperor, a word derived from Caesar).

The German Empire was a constitutional monarchy, like many European countries of the time. Even today, it's a common form of democratic government. Before the empire, most of the states that formed it were constitutional monarchies, while the free cities were republics. And while there were only three free cities left at the time, there used to be many more. In some cases, their republican form of government stretche…

Constitutional monarchy is a very broad term, covering everything from the present UK, where the monarch's power is purely theoretical or ceremonial, to Germany before 1918, where the monarch's power was almost unlimited. The Kaisar appointed the head of government, was the commander in chief, and could (and did) dissolve the parliament. The main limit on his power was his own incompetence.

Yes, some of the small states in the empire were democratic, but that only added to the instability of the whole after 1918 as the Weimar Republic struggled to unite people with very different histories.

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#196

Post by anigbrowl »

_3u10 wrote: post #175
anigbrowl wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the US and other Western powers go from bumbling buffoons that can't socially engineer their way out of a paper bag when you can see/prove it (Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc.) to master machivellian puppeteers when you can't. Asinine argument. Colonial/aggressive powers do well at first because seizing the initiative gives them the advantage of surprise and dismayed targets take time to catch up. The same approaches…

Could you remind me who is running Afghanistan these days? The name of the group is on the tip of my tongue.

You have failed to understand the point. The Taliban are running Afghanistan again because they learned the lessons of previous conflicts. It's not that the US is clueless as GP avers, but that others have caught up and tactics which previously worked no longer give the S the edge that they used to. GP was suggesting that the US can't bear responsibility for previous actions because it has bumbled in more recent times, an elaboration of the 'I'm baby' defense.

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#197

Post by cpursley »

_kbh_ wrote: post #193
cpursley wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't have those pesky ethnic Russian Ukrainians voting wrong now, can we?

> Can't have those pesky ethnic Russian Ukrainians voting wrong now, can we I think it’s more to do with the difficulty of conducting elections during an active war zone. I’m also not sure how those ethnically Russian Ukrainians feel about Russia after all Russia has done to them.

President Zelensky was just publicly complaining about Ukrainians partying it up as if there were no war.

They can manage an election.

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#198

Post by cpursley »

thephyber wrote: post #194
cpursley wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suspension of civil rights is NEVER okay in democratic societies. If you suspend them, you’re no longer democratic - Period.

“Is never okay” is not a rational argument in any philosophical or legal framework. You are projecting theoretically pure ideas into the real world where they don’t exist in any pure form. Ukraine was Soviet Socialist for most of the 20th century, so any positive democratic movement is an improvement. In 2014, the people overturned a highly Russia-aligned and corrupt government (for which Russia invaded Crimea and fo…

> In 2014, the people overturned a highly Russia-aligned and corrupt government

Adorable that you didn't use the word "coup" - especially considering how much money the US spent aiding it (info is in the public domain).

A coup against a democratically elected leader (even a really really shitty one) is by it's very definition, undemocratic. As is canceling elections.

Ukraine was never a democracy and the most corrupt country in Europe before this started, now it’s a dictatorship if we apply western standards.

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#199

Post by tijl »

It's interesting to see how the perspective on this is shifting in Iran to the point that nowadays, it became controversial to call this a coup. In the royalist version of events, it is Mosaddegh who attempted a coup. Mosaddegh had lost is parliamentary majority, but was still very popular. A held a referendum to dissolve parliament and give himself as prime minister the power to make law. The Shah responded by dismissing Mosaddegh. The Shah had the constitutional right to do this, because Parliament was not in session.

That's of course only part of the story, and it completely ignores the role of Britain and the US. But what is interesting to me is not so much what exactly happened, but how peoples' view on history changes with shifting political moods. A generation ago in Iran, basically everyone agreed that this was a coup by Western imperialist powers. Today, with growing opposition to the political system, comes a questioning of the "official" history as thought in schools. Young people are today looking for different (but equally one-sided) versions of the story in which the roles of good and bad get reversed.

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#200

Post by _kbh_ »

cpursley wrote: post #197
_kbh_ wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can't have those pesky ethnic Russian Ukrainians voting wrong now, can we I think it’s more to do with the difficulty of conducting elections during an active war zone. I’m also not sure how those ethnically Russian Ukrainians feel about Russia after all Russia has done to them.

President Zelensky was just publicly complaining about Ukrainians partying it up as if there were no war. They can manage an election.

> President Zelensky was just publicly complaining about Ukrainians partying it up as if there were no war.

I cant find a source for this can you provide one?.

> They can manage an election.

just because some people far behind the front line can afford to forget the war doesn't mean everyone can you.

I don't think elections work in an active war zone with such a dynamic front line.

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