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70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

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Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#181
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t really see US foreign policy in that era as imperialistic. That’s giving it too much credit as it implies a degree of even Machiavellian intelligence. The British were imperialistic and they were actually kind of good at it. It was sheer idiocy, an exercise in spending massive amounts of money to build up our own enemies and negate our own supposed values, turning billions away from Western democracy and towa…

> I don’t really see US foreign policy in that era as imperialistic. US has been imperialistic from birth. Heck the revolutionary war was fought to secure our right to be imperialists and commit genocide against the natives. Our reason for existence is imperialism. Or maybe history is right and a bunch of racist slavers wanted to birth liberty and freedom into the world. > That’s giving it too much credit as it impli…

> Or maybe history is right and a bunch of racist slavers wanted to birth liberty and freedom into the world.

While this is logically inconsistent, it is not without a historical precedent. Ancient Athens, during the classical Greek period of the Peloponnesian War when Athens had its empire in the form of the Delian League, was one of the major slaver societies of the entire era, rivaling perhaps even Sparta in the magnitude of slave ownership (though Sparta's slavery was of a very unique form). This is all the while they were decrying Persia's imperial ambitions and touting their fight for liberty against the oppressor. Consider that ancient Athens was the birthplace of democracy, and had one of the purest forms of democracy for what is considered an advanced civilization, to a fault — generals were getting executed for breaking the protocol on burial after the battle they had won (probably how they ended up losing the war). Given all that, one would be right to ask how they could justify promoting liberty and democracy on one hand, and being a slavery-based society on the other. The answer is always that a group of slavers simply does not consider the group that gets enslaved as worthy of having that liberty extended to them — that is the privilege of the "worthy" citizen class. In-group vs the out-group, tribalism and all that.

To go back to the sentence this comment replied to, it is unfortunately entirely believable that a group of racist slavers can be busy promoting liberty for people like themselves while enslaving those who they (conveniently choose to) see as lower than human. Logical consistency and evidence is not required, they are simply different in some way, and thus all is justified.

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#182
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> The same Ukraine that’s disbanded all opposition political parties They didn't though, they only disbanded the political parties that had ties to Russia, the country thats currently trying to invade and annex them. > suspended elections and is under martial law? The elections are suspended per their own constitution. They are under martial law because they are in a war.

Can't have those pesky ethnic Russian Ukrainians voting wrong now, can we?

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suspension of civil rights is NEVER okay in democratic societies. If you suspend them, you’re no longer democratic - Period.

> Suspension of civil rights is NEVER okay in democratic societies. Except in case of war.

No, NEVER. The very point of civil rights is to protect citizens FROM their own government when times get tough.

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the same Ukraine that is still actively at war for its existence after being invaded by a nuclear superpower. The capital is still being bombed, the democratically elected leadership is still under threat of assassination, so many of those infringements upon freedom are actually reasonable.

Suspension of civil rights is NEVER okay in democratic societies. If you suspend them, you’re no longer democratic - Period.

Oh, and I forgot they took full control over media and have greatly restricted speech.

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are stupid and thats the point. The weste had the chance togo through a science-fueled phase which won the minds against religion and so as a CONSEQUENCE people were convinced. Now the biggest wave is religious fundamentalism (whatever that means by the way) so people follow that as the sheeps they are. Democracy is the best system at the exception of the others, but its not perfect and can be challenged or ab…

I don't accept your premise, the idea that Democracy is particularly good or special isn't so obvious to me, but it's such a contentious discussion given that the US has armed itself to the teeth with the concept that it is democratic propagandistically that I can't belabor it. Largely, I would caution you to regain the wisdom of the West's greatest forebears and arm yourself with the knowledge that you don't actuall…

Sorry I actually meant the Churchill expression "worst system but better than the other"

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#186

I've never seen any analysis of why the US was able to install stable, successful democratic governments in Japan and Germany, and generally failed to elsewhere.

Japan was the interesting case. With Germany, you are basically asking how they managed to install a stable Western government in a Western country with a history with similar forms of government and the institutions to support them. It was probably easier than convincing the Confederate States of the legitimacy of the US after the Civil War.

Germany had no history with stable democracy. The Weimar Republic was a short-lived, unstable disaster and before that Germany was ruled by the Kaiser (emperor, a word derived from Caesar).

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan, Germany, South Korea, Taiwan, Ukraine. Technically Iraq as well, although I don't think the Iraqis were particularly happy about that.

South Korea and Taiwan were autocracies until relatively recently

Also the US didn't install the Taiwanese government.

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Suspension of civil rights is NEVER okay in democratic societies. Except in case of war.

No, NEVER. The very point of civil rights is to protect citizens FROM their own government when times get tough.

You are talking about liberal democracy, right? Because regular democracy doesn't contain this important bit.

However, even in case of liberal democracy, there is exception from the rule in case of war, because SOMEONE WILL DIE ANYWAY.

If you think that liberal government cannot send a men X to the front line, then government must sent a men Y, or accept that woman or children Z will die. Someone will die anyway. Moreover, if the men Y sent to front line where he can die from enemy action, or woman or children Z dies from enemy action, why the men X should be exempt from that?

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The coup most definitely did not install a theocratic government, an autocratic one quite likely but lets not pretend that the western secular Iran of the 60’s people seem to be so fond off wasn’t there predominantly because of the Shah not despite of him. The Islamic Revolution didn’t succeed power by chance, whilst the Shah was opposed by many factions form secular communists to religious fanatics the reason why th…

>At some point something had to give which is now why you have decades of Erdogan. What gave was the usual brilliance of Brussels. The generals were plotting to kill him on national TV as they usually did, but around 2005-6 EU leaders started pearl clutching about religious freedom and how Turkey would never enter EU if not human rights or similar bullshit - so Turkey is still outside of EU, no chance of getting in,…

It’s laughable that people blame the EU for Turkey’s regression. 2nd the 3rd generation Turks in the EU are amongst Erdogan’s most radical supporters, Erdogan got a far greater share of the overseas ballots from EU member states than he did back in Turkey, in fact the only two countries where the opposition had a lead were the UK and US.

Turkey always had a demographic problem, just like Iran does, it’s not in the EU because it could not resolve its own demographic problem not that it’s demographic problem was somehow due to the EU closing the door on Turkey’s membership.

Re: 70 years ago, an Anglo-US coup condemned Iran to decades of oppression

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan was the interesting case. With Germany, you are basically asking how they managed to install a stable Western government in a Western country with a history with similar forms of government and the institutions to support them. It was probably easier than convincing the Confederate States of the legitimacy of the US after the Civil War.

Germany had no history with stable democracy. The Weimar Republic was a short-lived, unstable disaster and before that Germany was ruled by the Kaiser (emperor, a word derived from Caesar).

The German Empire was a constitutional monarchy, like many European countries of the time. Even today, it's a common form of democratic government. Before the empire, most of the states that formed it were constitutional monarchies, while the free cities were republics. And while there were only three free cities left at the time, there used to be many more. In some cases, their republican form of government stretched back all the way to the middle ages, though usually in an oligarchic flavor.
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