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Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

arstechnica.com

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Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#191

Post by jojobas »

tqi wrote: post #139
LeifCarrotson wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with numbers is that they don't tell the whole story. I can easily imagine a scenario where it might prevent 25000 crashes a year that are caused because 5% of drivers are staring at their phones, have a high chance of rear-ending someone, and this software makes that far less likely. While also containing bugs causing 1000 crashes a year for the larger number of non-distracted drivers, resulting in a net…

That's true of basically any change isn't it? Even seat belts conceivably could result in some very small increase in the chance of death as a result of it being harder to escape a vehicle. Obviously the benefits far outweigh the risk, but then we are just arguing over where to draw the line.

They way you crash in terms of whether your seatbelt helps or harms doesn't depend on your life choices. Features likely benefiting drunk and distracted drivers and likely hurting aware ones are different.

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#192

Post by jojobas »

jacquesm wrote: post #6

This almost got me into a serious accident, twice. Definitely would not recommend and I switched cars because of it. The last thing I need is buggy software with the capability of instantly changing the trajectory of my vehicle (slippery surfaces, cornering). A brand car as well (MB) so really, really disappointed, what should have been a safety feature actually was the opposite. Dealer said everything was fine so th…

Add to that the ability to stop and rob cars with a roll of foil. Thanks, but no thanks.

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#193

Post by toast0 »

taeric wrote: post #134
toast0 wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't count the number of flowers AEB has prevented me from murdering. But at least in my equiped vehicle, the nuisance activations haven't been dangerous, and most of the events in traffic have been reasonable, if overly conservative. During parking, less so, but at least predictable. Having AEB without being aware of it is probably not ideal. If it activates improperly and you didn't know it was there, that's twi…

Sadly, most anything is disorienting in crash situations. I recall how disoriented my mother was when a car came from the side and almost hit us. She tried braking and swerving, but that just caused a hydroplane and when the wheels got traction again, jerked us to the side. She was convinced the other car hit us. I was, too, all told. Until I saw that there was no impact on the side of our car. Which is to say, you a…

Well, if it's mandatory on new cars, then kind of everybody knows its there, and then there's the fun of not realizing it's not there on older cars. While it's optional, it might be nice if they had a notice on the dash that it's enabled.

On the seatbelt locking, I learned the why when installing car seats, which seems reasonable, because that's what it's for.

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#194

Post by ceejayoz »

dabluecaboose wrote: post #169
ceejayoz wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Statistics are meaningless to the individual. This is just blatantly untrue. > means little compared to an individual who already drives safely without it Until emergency breaking stops a bad driver from T-boning you in an intersection as they run a red light. “I’ll just drive safely” was the argument against seatbelts, airbags, and antilock brakes. Motorcycle helmets, too.

>> Statistics are meaningless to the individual. >This is just blatantly untrue. I mean, it's not. Statistics describe how society on average acts, not how you personally act. Someone telling you "Statistically you're more likely to drown if you own a pool" doesn't mean as much if you bought a pool and then became a paraplegic, for example. Saying "emergency braking will bring down average car deaths" is probably tru…

Joebob’s car insurance premiums and taxes cover others’ car crashes. He is statistically impacted even if he’s a recluse without a car at all.

(He might even be statistically more likely to run into the car he’s not used to seeing on the usually empty road via the stop sign he usually blows right through. Who knows?)

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#195

Post by kovacs_ »

hnick wrote: post #115
ics wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wrote up a long comment that got scrapped by my focus filter but I feel the need to voice strong agreement here. I have a recent Mazda which in almost all ways is my perfect car except for the newfangled safety features all new cars seem to have. Lane correction and emergency braking, even set to the lowest sensitivity levels, are bad to outright dangerous in city (and some country) driving. In NYC it's common to h…

My new car has lane keep assist and AEB and I haven't had these issues. From what I hear it's very much to do with a maker's implementation (mine is Hyundai, who for various reasons seems to have a bad reputation in North America but a good one in Australia). For the lane keep assist I feel a nudge but it's extremely easy to overcome just through a normal grip on the wheel - if I don't budge it won't move. It's been…

Hyundai had a not so great reputation in the early 2000s in the US. In recent years however this opinion seems to have shifted.

Been driving an Ioniq 5 2023 for a couple months now with no phantom/emergency braking issues. I'm not in love with the performance of the lane keep without being on an HDA2 marked highway. I have to fight it just enough for it to not be useful on certain well marked backroads.

Considering tossing in a Comma 3 to give no-hands driver assist a shot.

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#196

Post by grugagag »

hnick wrote: post #115
ics wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wrote up a long comment that got scrapped by my focus filter but I feel the need to voice strong agreement here. I have a recent Mazda which in almost all ways is my perfect car except for the newfangled safety features all new cars seem to have. Lane correction and emergency braking, even set to the lowest sensitivity levels, are bad to outright dangerous in city (and some country) driving. In NYC it's common to h…

My new car has lane keep assist and AEB and I haven't had these issues. From what I hear it's very much to do with a maker's implementation (mine is Hyundai, who for various reasons seems to have a bad reputation in North America but a good one in Australia). For the lane keep assist I feel a nudge but it's extremely easy to overcome just through a normal grip on the wheel - if I don't budge it won't move. It's been…

Maybe also it depends on the type of traffic and local driving habits and what saves your life in one city or country could kill you in another. The thing is, I’d rather have it disabled and not save lives but also not take any by default. It will surely improve over time and if it becomes flawless sure, I’d take it. The thing is that I don’t wan’t to be beta testing with my life or my passengers lives.

In cases where it’s not possible to disable the feature we better constantly record the car from all angles to have it as a proof against the manufacturer in case something goes bad. Near accidents caused by buggy software should not get a free pass, but require the manufactuter to fully reimburse you or pay you some serious fine.

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#197

Post by SkyPuncher »

Drunk_Engineer wrote: post #183

Risk Compensation theory predicts this technology will increase risky behavior by drivers. It has been well established that people adjust their behavior in response to perceived risk -- and if the car is going to handle the emergency braking it will cause more dangerous speeds and tailgating. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation

I have it on my car. I think your concern isn’t an issue in reality. I have never seen it kick in while being close to someone’s bumper.

It has only kicked in in three situations, all of which have been warranted.

* I was turning onto a main road. Foolishly, I assumed the car turning in front of me went. I started making my turn. It alerted me and avoided a minor, but costly rear end.

* in dense traffic where people cut in and out. In the time it takes to verify a lane change, someone has cut you off or traffic has slowed. It doesn’t not apply heavy braking, but issues an audible alarm and pretensions the brakes.

* once in a situation where I misjudged the braking speed of the car in front of me. The vehicle was a bit smaller than I though, so it appeared further away at speed.

In the latter two cases, the actual emergency braking did not engage. Only the pre warning and tensioning. In both situations, I would have likely avoided an accident without the system, but had to apply by brakes even harder.

My understanding is emergency braking doesn’t necessarily avoid a collision, but it can bleed of speed in the final few feet before an impact. A collision ending 2 feet into your bumper is far safer than one ending 10ft into your car.

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#198

Post by lgleason »

Given how many people drive cars every year in the US, 360 lives saved is a rounding error. Would like to see the data on the accidents it actually prevents. I have cars with and without this. Honestly I haven't noticed a difference one way or the other with anecdotal experiences.

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#199

Post by [deleted] »

taeric wrote: post #25

I confess that I find a dark humor in how many self professed "great drivers" find these features a nuisance. All the while so many people are completely unaware that they have these, as they have never activated. Hard for me to square those pegs in a favorable way. Which, yes, being a great driver means you may be pushing close to limits while still be completely under control a lot. I just don't have a strong prior…

[deleted]

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#200

Post by eternityforest »

tempestn wrote: post #175
jacquesm wrote: post #6

This almost got me into a serious accident, twice. Definitely would not recommend and I switched cars because of it. The last thing I need is buggy software with the capability of instantly changing the trajectory of my vehicle (slippery surfaces, cornering). A brand car as well (MB) so really, really disappointed, what should have been a safety feature actually was the opposite. Dealer said everything was fine so th…

Agreed here too. Pretty much all my experiences with these kinds of features have been poor. I turned off the emergency breaking on our Tesla after it slammed on the brakes for no reason on the highway a couple of times. Could easily cause someone to rear-end you. I also recall a Kia I rented once that had automatic lane keep assist and blind spot warnings. The blind spot warning was so sensitive that it would loudly…

Do you have experience with non-tesla autobrake? Doesn't Tesla have a bunch of "We don't need radars, cameras only" stuff holding back their capability?
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