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Evidence that Adani Group has engaged in stock manipulation and accounting fraud

hindenburgresearch.com

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Re: Evidence that Adani Group has engaged in stock manipulation and accounting fraud

#191

Post by ajross »

zharknado wrote: post #159
ajross wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was quite a bit easier to digest, though. Can someone give me a more summarized version? I gave up after the ninth or tenth bullet item. Who's being defrauded and how?

Also alleged are a vast array of offshore shell companies that are secretly controlled by insiders, making undisclosed transactions to wash money, shore up balance sheets, juice revenue numbers, and generally create massive financial interdependence between entities that are presented to the public as being unrelated.

OK, sure. That stuff is all questionably legal and bad for the market and they shouldn't do it.

I'm trying to find the (sigh) "Largest Con in Corporate History" promised in the headline. All I'm finding is accounting games and market cheating? I mean, these are routine crimes. In the US, the SEC prosecutes dozens of these every year (maybe it's easier to get away with it in India). Maybe there's an argument that the scale here is larger? If so the numbers aren't in the article.

Re: Evidence that Adani Group has engaged in stock manipulation and accounting fraud

#192

Post by mistermxyzptlk »

The Hindenburg report is well researched. Shorting Adani stock won't be the thing that puts nails in Adani's coffin, but rather it is the waning confidence in Adani as these insights get absorbed by the market. It seems as though Adani is "too big to fail" which is actually helpful toward the effort to tank the shares. If Indian government is forced to bail out Adani, then the government won't do so under a structure that is beneficial to holders of today's shares. If taxpayers need to step up, then equity holders must share most of the pain.

Re: Evidence that Adani Group has engaged in stock manipulation and accounting fraud

#193

Post by jimmydorry »

Thorrez wrote: post #168
smabie wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, then you couldn't cover your short position.

Why would you need to? Who wants it back?

Nobody, but you would continue paying fees on your short position and there would be no liquidity to close it out.

Re: Evidence that Adani Group has engaged in stock manipulation and accounting fraud

#194

Post by csours »

serverholic wrote: post #115
Ralo wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to work at a car part store and the majority of the staff was teenagers looking to get into the car world (either future mechanics, or car parts managers) but they WAY under paid us for the type of work. Repair shops looking for specialty parts that someone with mechanics experience should really be looking for, not some teenager asking "whats a brake rotor?". We had a revolving door of workers and our custome…

I find it interesting how quickly people will defend their own exploitation.

You can read this as dismissive, but it does show the strength of the drive to rationalize; which is one of my biggest problems with things like "rational skepticism". It's too easy to rationalize something you already believe, or a situation you just happen to find yourself in. It's too fun to 'debunk' things, and too much of a chore to actually change beliefs.

I realize the obvious counter "That's not real rational skepticism".

Re: Evidence that Adani Group has engaged in stock manipulation and accounting fraud

#195

Post by kbenson »

jimmydorry wrote: post #193
Thorrez wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you need to? Who wants it back?

Nobody, but you would continue paying fees on your short position and there would be no liquidity to close it out.

A simple Google search indicates that you often don't need to cover a short if a company is delisted, and if it's not delisted then you can always offer over the current value (even if the current value is zero) to get some of the worthless stock, so I don't see how covering the short if the company implodes is a problem.

Unless you have expertise that it's not that simple? Or a source saying otherwise? (Not an attempt to be snide, but an honest opening for counter evidence, I'm not an expert in this).

Re: Evidence that Adani Group has engaged in stock manipulation and accounting fraud

#196

Post by arolihas »

kamaal wrote: post #128
livueta wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It doesn't even have to be a direct payout, there are always 'projects' you can give and pay them some 1000% extra money compared what it would otherwise cost. In other words a government(tax funded) bailout is easily doable and will be done, when the need arises. In many ways the party is just giving money to itself(Electoral bonds). I'm reminded of this: https://www.economist.com/asia/2022/12/20/can-indias-riches…

India's case is unfortunately a lot more worse. The reason why this sort of corruption gets an easy pass is because the public is not necessarily against corruption. They like to imagine themselves as temporarily embarrassed 'millionaires' type of section. While the discussion is always on the lines corruption being bad, its only used in the context of looking better. Pretty much everyone wants a government job, or a…

When the only perceived options are to swindle or be swindled, what are people supposed to aspire to?

Re: Evidence that Adani Group has engaged in stock manipulation and accounting fraud

#197

Post by dklsf »

kbenson wrote: post #195
jimmydorry wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody, but you would continue paying fees on your short position and there would be no liquidity to close it out.

A simple Google search indicates that you often don't need to cover a short if a company is delisted, and if it's not delisted then you can always offer over the current value (even if the current value is zero) to get some of the worthless stock, so I don't see how covering the short if the company implodes is a problem. Unless you have expertise that it's not that simple? Or a source saying otherwise? (Not an attem…

In some markets, such as Hong Kong, instead of being delisted, suspected frauds are often halted (the stock cannot be traded). So you might end up paying the borrow fee for years, even though you were right about the company being a fraud.

See https://www.reuters.com/article/muddy-waters-asia-short-sell...

Re: Evidence that Adani Group has engaged in stock manipulation and accounting fraud

#198

Post by dklsf »

skizm wrote: post #68

If these companies assets or stocks go to zero or are locked due to fraud or something that makes the actual public stocks untradable, how do you get out of a short position? Borrowing and selling the stock means you can’t get it back to return to the original owner, and buying put options means you can’t sell the stock to the contract holder. Do you have to get out before it gets completely vaporized?

It depends what you mean by "untradeable". If the market or regulator decides that the stock cannot be traded at all, you might end up paying a lot of money in fees for years even if you were right.

https://www.reuters.com/article/muddy-waters-asia-short-sell...

Re: Evidence that Adani Group has engaged in stock manipulation and accounting fraud

#199

Post by rhaway84773 »

trustingtrust wrote: post #111

The Ambanis are actually not very different from the Adanis, just better at hiding. Hindenburg might have take a short position based on numbers but its likely that as long as the current government stays in power its unlikely these two giants (whether they are really giants or no) will change as governments play a big role in such things. Like someone pointed out, it's more likely that their cons will outlast Hinden…

The Ambanis are very different than the Adanis.

1) The Ambanis didn’t exist when the Ambanis were rising. This is similar to how everyone wants to be the next Amazon, ignoring the little fact that unlike when Amazon was growing, there already is an Amazon now.

2) The Ambanis were able to ride a wave of massive growth post liberalization to cover up their illegal dealings and essentially become legitimate. It’s not clear that there is any such wave of massive growth available to the Adanis to cover up their illegal dealings.

3) The Ambanis raised money illegally almost entirely locally, which meant they avoided international scrutiny, and they did so at a time when the Indian financial agencies were simply not mature enough. The Adanis will be raising foreign funds which increases scrutiny, but also Indian regulatory agencies are far more mature at this point.

4) The Ambanis valuation did collapse dramatically for a significant period of time. The difference is that the business has been split between the 2 brothers and one went to almost 0, while the other grew slightly. Their combined wealth, simulating the market cap of the company, has declined drastically from its peak level.

Re: Evidence that Adani Group has engaged in stock manipulation and accounting fraud

#200

Post by fastball »

howinteresting wrote: post #154
fastball wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. You own a company. 2. Your company produces something hugely useful / beneficial for society; in other words, it produces something hugely valuable. 3. Your company is therefore valuable, making you super wealthy. Which part of the above is unethical?

3 is actually two steps: 3a. Your company is therefore valuable. 3b. Your company being valuable makes you super wealthy. 3b is unethical.

3b is not a new step, that's just a repetition of step 1. Are you saying you believe ownership of a company is unethical?

It seems to be that statement needs to be justified with a little bit more than "because I say so".

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